“This Emergent worship station is designed to correspond to a U.N. Millennium Development Goal.”
If an alien from another planet wanted to understand Protestantism, I would simply point him to this post by Rachel Held Evans:
Missing from the whole dialog was any sense that we’re in this together, that, as followers of Jesus, we may need to put our heads together to re-imagine what it means to be the Church in a postmodern, American culture where confidence in organized religion is at an all-time low.
I’ll come back to Rachel’s words at the end of this post. But first, realize that Protestantism is inherently fissiparous. While it is true that human beings in any group have some tendency to break apart into factions, with Protestantism it is endemic to its DNA. Anglican scholar Alister McGrath delights in this and sees its ability to morph and change into any shape as a strength that will allow it to adapt to any people and time.
Protestantism moves like a jellyfish, rhythm don’t mean nothin’, it goes with the flow; it don’t stop.
And I admit I have some jealousy of Protestants here. They get to pour out their hearts to the blogosphere complaining that they are so unique in their particular beliefs that they don’t fit in any specific church (not even *gasp* in Emergent ones!). Because they vote Democrat but like Bible studies. Or they vote Republican but like creative liturgies (squee!).
In other words, given its starting conditions and fundamental principles, Protestantism has become exactly what you would expect it to become: hundreds of millions of individuals all mixing up their own particular doctrinal recipe. The unity that Christ prayed for in John 17 need not apply.
Can Protestantism be divvied up into two camps: liberal and conservative? Sure, (very) roughly. But in fact there’s a huge squishy middle between the two where most Protestants probably fall today. And unsurprisingly you hear about the minorities on the extremes: the Episcopalians who can’t seem to reject traditional doctrines fast enough and the dogmatic Calvinists who have managed to infiltrate Baptist conventions and scream “heretic!” at even the most conservative Evangelical Christians.
So I do see why many Protestants feel like they don’t fit in either of these camps. Yet what they must realize is that, if they remain Protestant, they will find no solution to this problem. For the Protestant hermeneutical paradigm offers no principled way to make a distinction between conclusions that truly express the assent of faith and those which are merely human opinions.
This philosophical fact has an upside: it means that Rachel and people like her and the Calvinists and Pentecostals and Restorationists and Quakers and Lutherans and every other Protestant will have never-ending grist for their blogging mill for the rest of their lives, trying to build infinite numbers of bridges between the countless Protestant factions in a vain attempt to unite something that was never a unity and never will be.
I don’t say this to be mean, but to shout “Wake Up!” to my Protestant brothers and sisters. There is a better way, the way that our Lord built His Church: on the Apostles, with authority given to them from Christ and then to their successors. With the Holy Ghost protecting the Church from erring on doctrine. With God never leaving His Church or letting it dissolve into thousands of splinters.
We can know the truth in its fullness because God has revealed it and preserved it in His Church, which subsists in the Catholic Church. We do not need to “re-imagine what it means to be the Church” because the Church is Christ’s and it is not ours to re-imagine. Rather, we discover the Church as something that precedes and transcends us.
If Protestantism were true, then the Church is ours to Emerge and Reinvent. But because Catholicism is true, the Church is something that we find and which reinvents us.
I think I got it…yes…yes… BINGO!
We are Protestants. (not really…we are confessional Lutherans…there’s a difference)
And we are in the middle. Not liberal…or conservative = not political.
We are concerned with standing fast for the pure gospel. Like Luther did. And not giving in to the political whims of either camp (left or right) as it relates to the Christian proclamation.
We have much bigger fish to fry.
Steve, this tendency within Protestantism doesn’t rule out the fact that people and denominations exist that have remained much more steadfast to their founding principles and doctrine (as well as remained much closer to the doctrines of traditional Christianity). So hopefully no offense was given in spite of this post’s sharp tone.
God bless!
Devin
None taken, Devin.
Just shooting for clarity!
Thanks, friend.
Are you ELC?
Brent,
We are, but since they have (liberal leadership) decided to abandon God’s Word, we are looking to align ourselves with more centrist Lutheran group(s).
If you aren’t Catholic, then you are Protestant. If you are not in union with the Catholic church, then you are in a schism, that is you have left the one true faith, which is the Catholic church, which has been faithful from the time of Jesus.
Curtis, I believe that is exactly what the Eastern Orthodox church would say to Roman Catholics! It depends on what you consider to be ‘faithfulness.’ It’s clear to me that what the Catholic church were teaching at the time of the Reformation was not faithful to Scripture or the Apostles, so I would contend that the Catholic church was not being truly faithful.
However, that doesn’t mean I think the Catholic church should shut down. It’s possible to have divergences of opinion yet still be faithful Christians.
Paul
Paul,
As a Protestant, I took a breath and dove into Church history looking for truth, not looking for statements from others outside looking into the Church. Big mistake! I, like others willing to accept what we found, ended up in the Catholic Church.
As for the Eastern Orthodox, they left Rome to follow the Emperors, since they thought it was a tripod.
As for the Reformation, what did they reform? The Church stayed consistent with the Church Fathers and historical documents. Luther in fact was a crass individual, lacking in holiness and spiritual depth, who hid behind the skirt of his political accomplices. However, he did have a devotion to Mary, which his followers have left behind -a trait found in other Protestant faiths, such as the Wesley brothers and Methodists. Did you know that Charles Wesley’s son left the Methodists to become Catholic and with Charles penned Catholic hymns?
One point we most often miss is that the Church does not belong to us. It is not based on what we think is right or what we understand. Christ referred to it as His Church. It is a question of obedience to Him, not to my truths, intellect, or understanding. I trust Him.
May He bless your journey as well.
Hi Gerry, thanks for the comments. I love your para on the church not belonging to us, totally agree. It’s too easy to believe we have the rights over it, but ultimately it’s his body. Paul’s analogy in 1 Cor 12 is really important and challenging, in that we can point to denominations or parts of the church we don’t like or don’t agree with, but it seems to be saying they’re just as important as we are. Rom 14 makes this clear on an individual level, and tells me our attitude to the church as a whole (Catholic and non-Catholic) should be one of respect and unity where possible.
Paul
Technically, we are not Protestants.
We were advocating Reform. We never willingly left the Roman Catholic Church…we were thrown out.
If the Roman Church make some of the reforms that advocated then, and that we still do…we would return to Rome in a second.
But I doubt it will ever happen. But, never say never.
Hi Steve,
I appreciate your comment. I recently left an evangelical seminary to become Catholic and while I was there I tried to imagine what it would be like for Protestants to return to the Catholic Church. What struck me is that the “we” you refer to is meant differently than most would expect. There’s no team leader of the “we.” Who would make the call to return to Rome? Rick Warren? Especially in evangelical/Baptist circles, there could be no mass return (unlike in Eastern Orthodox). I was further struck by this point when I saw how many pastors rejected the Evangelicals and Catholics Together document. If there ever is a return, it will be in individual splinters (like my conversion) due to the splits since the Reformation.
None of this means you are personally wrong! But it’s interesting to think about!
Lutherans are not political? Oh, really? And how do you explain, that most Lutheran churches in Europe are state churches?
Lutherans were involved in quite a lot of political power struggles for “non-political”. “Cuius regio eius religio” has bound Lutheran churches to the policies of their princes for many generations and sometimes it seems that they are not able to survive without them. Perhaps this assumption is wrong, but it would explain the descent of the Lutheran churches in northern Europe.
“Missing from the whole dialog was any sense that we’re in this together, that, as followers of Jesus, we may need to put our heads together to re-imagine what it means to be the Church in a postmodern, American culture where confidence in organized religion is at an all-time low.”
Missing from this statement in the confidence in the church. For if she believed in the Church that Christ founded, she’d see that the problem lies not with the Church, but with the American – Western, really – culture.
The Roman empire didn’t become Catholic because the Church adopted Roman mores and customs, on the contrary. And in this lies the power of Christ, which unfortunately Protestantism has diluted.
Apropos: http://all.gloria.tv/?media=312257
Thanks for the thoughts Dwight. I see your point, but if you’re looking for arguments to encourage Protestants to embrace Catholicism there are definitely stronger ones out there!
I’d say that your argument is partly predicated on something that the Protestant denominations wouldn’t accept, i.e. that church tradition and the way things have always been done is inherently authoritative. For me as an Anglican (in the UK, like you used to) I think tradition is really important…but it’s not equal with scripture. So there’s nothing wrong with seeking to engage with the culture around and seek new ways of doing things, whilst holding to traditional beliefs. That’s good…indeed the Catholic church itself has done this with good effect over time. Yes this is taken too far sometimes…but so is clinging to the ways things have always been done when they have outlived their purpose, or are no longer culturally relevant. Could you give examples of things which you think have been changed which should not have?
Also, the Catholic church from what I understand is not a uniform monolith without divergences of opinion. There are clearly differences of opinion to a large extent, even on signficiant doctrinal issues. Would you accept that there are different ways of looking at many issues, which aren’t necessarily a matter of right and wrong, but rather interpretation?
But most of all, you won’t be surprised to hear me say…if one is going to claim absolute authority for one particular church, one needs to be sure about its teaching. And when I look at the official doctrines of the Roman church, I see much that conflicts with scripture and with the teaching of the early church fathers. I won’t list them all as you know them anyway…but to me, they are sufficiently fundamental to cause me to both question and reject any absolutist truth claims from the Pope and his church. Much of this teaching has clearly been added well after Apostolic times (e.g. Purgatory and transubstantiation), including the doctrine of Papal infallibility which, alone, to me is enough to reject the Roman church’s claims of authority.
I absolutely agree about the importance of what Jesus said in John 17 about unity. But I would politely suggest that simply saying that unity should consist of people joining the Roman church, rather than discussing areas of common ground to work together, is not a particularly helpful approach. Do you believe that faithful Christians living in a relationship with Jesus can happily exist and grow in denominations outside of the Roman church? If not, then that is quite a claim to make and I would welcome your reasoning.
Hope that makes sense…
Paul
Paul, briefly, I (Devin Rose) wrote this post, not Fr. Dwight Longenecker, if you are thinking that he wrote it. Just wanted to be clear. I’ll try to respond more later today. Thanks!
Thanks Devin, apologies, I realised that as soon as I’d posted it! Must learn to read the top of webpages when looking at links via Twitter…
No worries, Paul. I saw that Fr. Dwight had tweeted it and suspected as much. I’m honored that you thought he even might have written this! God bless,
Devin
Father, I agree with your description of the Protestant world, even if many of them choose not to think of themselves as Protestants anymore – at which point I feel like saying, “See you at Mass, then!” Anyway … I often wonder if the only thing unifying Catholics is the fact that we all call ourselves by the same label, and then many of us spend every moment of our lives trying to redefine that label. The same Church contains Pope B16, Peter Kreeft, Father Dwight, Mother Angelica, Dorothy Day, John Dominic Crossan, Joe Biden, and Joan Chittister. And then there are the groups who think that they’re more Catholic than the pope. As someone who grew up in an evangelical setting in which everyone in our little group thought more or less alike, this just seems almost insanely diverse. We wouldn’t have permitted it. It’s like having the Protestant world, with all of its battles, under one roof. We have the Word of God, the Spirit in the Church functioning through the guidance of the Holy Father and the Magisterium – but the battles continue anyway. It’s just very strange to me.
Michael, do examine that blog post I linked to at Sacramentum Vitae (by Dr. Michael Liccione). While it is true that many Catholics exist who do not believe in all the Church’s teachings, the fact is that under the Catholic paradigm we can at least know who is dissenting from the Church, while under Protestantism it is only one person’s opinion differing from the opinion of another.
Thanks Devin. That’s my starting point, and my comfort. I just wish it kept down the noise … 8?)
I’ll check out the link.
Ha! Yeah, that stings. “Creedlessness” ain’t all it’s cracked up to be. Enjoyed the post.
Most of the Protestant “jellyfish” have more in common with Rome than we do.
Their theology is basically the same, ‘A lot of God and a little bit of me.’
We, on the other hand, advocate something truly different:
http://theoldadam.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/the-two-christian-paradigms.mp3
If you can give it 6 minutes, you’ll start to see what I mean (whether or not you agree with it). Then maybe you’ll have a better understanding of why Luther pushed for the reforms that he did.
Michael Fraley, I completely agree with you. It is very strange to me, too. Coming from an LDS (Mormon) background where, there are so many strange doctrines that most Mormons today either don’t know about, or know about but dont believe, and yet there is this feeling of complete solidarity to the church, the leaders, even the doctrines they don’t talk about (that they don’t know about or believe, anyway!). There is so much diversity in the Catholic church, it is indeed very strange, as you said. I have no better way to say it, and honestly don’t quite know what to think of it right now.
A particular comment from a reader stood out in Rachel’s post, one that asked “why can’t this blog be our church? You are our pastor, the readers the congregations”. Can a blog by a church? It can surely be a community, but as you said, surely Christ has something more in mind than a website when He spoke of “one body”. You can’t administer the sacrament of baptism online. You can’t receive the Eucharist online. For the Christ-ordained rituals and sacraments to be performed properly, at the end of the day, you will need the Catholic Church.
Oh wow, Katherine, I had not read that comment. Very very telling and interesting. And your response nails it.
At the end of the day, you will need Christ Jesus, and whatever church places Him and His pure gospel at the center.
(being a good Lutheran, I could not resist
)
This is what drew me in to the Catholic church. Where else would we go, where we can receive Him, just as He said? His body is true food and His blood is true drink. Is that true in the Lutheran church today?
Christ Jesus is not limited to any institution.
He is wherever His Word (Himself) is proclaimed and freely given.
We say that He is in the Catholic Church. We say that we know the truth. But we are not the only ones who know it.
Of course you are rught, Christ is present. All the more whenever two or more are gathered. I once heard it said: “The Reason to be Christian is Christ. The reason to be Catholic is the Sacraments.” I think that’s very well said. I don’t think the true church founded upon the rock will ever lose the sacraments. That’s the angle the LDS take btw, that the priesthood was somehow lost along the way, and therefore needed to be restored. Making the words Christ said Himself on the matter meaningless.
We believe that Christ Himself is the Rock. And that Christ was referring to Peter’s confession of faith, not the man himself.
And the Sacraments are wherever He is present. In our church, the Word (of promise) accompanying the water of Baptism is what makes Baptism efficacious. And the Word of promise accompanying the bread and the wine is what makes His Supper efficacious. Not the qualifications of the men who distribute it.
My pastor was once asked (in a class on Mormonism),”Could there be some Christians in the Mormon “church”?” He said, “Sure. There might even be some here.”
Many sit in the pews. But Christ Jesus knows His Church and who belongs to Him.
I wholeheartedly agree with your pastor.
“To go deep in history is to cease being Protestant”. These words from John Henry Newman demonstrate that there are no Conservative Protestants. We can find Political Conservatives within Protestantism, but not religious Conservatives. Luther’s idea that every person is their own priest, which sets in place the idea of individual primacy and authority, is patently not Christian. Protestants share with Muslims the idea that government is at least equal to the Church, if not superior.
That’s not true. It may be true for some. But Luther never put forth the idea of individual primacy.
Primacy is in the Word of God. The gospel of Jesus Christ. If the Pope or Larry down the street denies the gospel then it is not the Word of God. If the Pope defends the gospel and Mary down the street does, also, then it is the Word of God.
We do believe in the priesthood of all believers (because the Bible tells us that is is so). And that being that any believer has the power (because of the Word) to speak and act for God.
We don’t believe, as many Christians do, that anyone receives any special power that other Christians do not have themselves, by virtue of being touched by the “proper fingertips”. That undermines the pure gospel.
If Jesus wanted it that way, then you have precisely what you have tried to resist: a lot of Jesus and a little of you (meaning your man-made ecclesiology).
Special fingertips in Acts 8:14-17…
When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria. When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
Hi David, good passage to quote. This is what we do in our church all the time – when people become Christians, we lay hands and pray for them to recieve the Holy Spirit. Which God does in amazing ways, giving people experiences of his love, manifestations of the Spirit and spiritual gifts.
If I get your point correctly, are you saying that only apostles and their successors (i.e. popes and bishops) can bestow the gift of the Spirit by the laying on of hands? There is nothing ‘special’ about the fingertips, it’s the asking and receiving with God doing the work that’s important. Luke 11:13 says that God gives the gift of the Spirit when we ask, Eph 5:18 says for us to be filled (i.e. go on being filled) with the Spirit.
My understanding of scripture is that the Spirit is not bound to only work through ‘special’ fingertips, but any fingertips used in faith!
Paul
Maybe Protestants just like to blog.
I love telling people about the total sufficiency of Christ alone (with NO add-on’s).
I really do. I love it. Because that same liberating, pure gospel that has freed me, may free someone else from there religious ladder-climbing/spirituality project (which only leads to pride…or despair).
Hahaha! Well, Ben, that is also a possibility.
From what I read in Scripture, Jesus did want it all to be about Him. When we added ourselves into the mix…we just seemed to mess it up.
Jesus added people to the mix. He actually put together a church and added it to the mix. An organized church. See, this is what happens when faith becomes all about “me and Jesus”. People start ignoring huge sections of scripture (or simply don’t see them at all) and create their own personal belief systems. Yes, Luther had legitimate reasons to call for reform. But do you think this is what *even he* had in mind – - 40,000 “denominations”? I think he’s rolling over in his grave. But hey, only you know where the Lord is calling you.
Yes, He added people…to go and tell of the great things that He had done. And to do what we were made to do…to love God and the neighbor as ourselves.
I don’t believe that He added people to make what He had already done legit. Or to have to go through them to get to Him.
The Scriptures say that “we have one mediator, and that is Christ Jesus.”
__
Yes, there are a lot of denominations and sects and cults and God knows what else.
That’s why we push Christ alone. And no add-on’s. Almost every one of those denominations has add-on’s too to the finished work of Christ, whether they be Popes, or decisions for Christ, or secret underwear, or speaking in tongues…or whatever.
Anyway, through all of it, Christ knows His sheep and they know His voice.
The Lord will handle it all. Our task is to remain faithful to Him.
Thanks, Tami.
Steve, you’re welcome. I am enjoying our dialog. The Lutheran services I’ve attended certainly appeared very similar to the Catholic mass. I don’t believe that the pope, or the church, are ‘add-on’s’ to Christ any more than your pastor is. Why would you think that? I can’t wrap my head around what you are saying, especially since I see the two churches doing mostly the same things.
Now, if we are discussing what is truly taking place during mass, then I don’t know how much more intimate we could be with Christ than that. And there again, the Priest is doing exactly what Christ commanded – we can read it in the word.
Peace to you,
Tami
Thank you, Tami.
I appreciate our discussion, as well.
I’m getting ready to leave for work. But will respond further when I get home this afternoon.
His Peace be with you, as well!