Reading the Bible recently, I came across 1 Cor. 7:19, which reads:
For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God.
It struck me as interesting, since we read also in Galatians 5:6:
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.
As a Protestant, I would typically scan right over such verses without much thought, but it strikes me as odd that, if sola fide were true, St. Paul would not here very clearly say: “Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision matter, but only faith alone.”
Instead, again rather oddly, he emphasizes “the commandments” and “faith working through love.” Perhaps we could even draw a connection that keeping the commandments and faith working through love are intimately related?
I think the response to this, from a Protestant, would be something like: Paul is not here talking about justification but about sanctification or the works done by the already-justified Christian.
And that may be true, but with the previous verses in Galatians specifically talking about justification, it seems either justification has an ongoing aspect (as Catholics claim it does), or the Bible is easy to misinterpret in these passages.
Circumcision being an act that we do, Paul is saying that what we do is neither here, nor there.
You don’t gain anything in God’s eyes by being circumcised, and you don’t gain anything in God’s eyes by not being circumcised. What we do, or what we don’t do, is of no avail.
It is only by faith, in Christ, and Him alone that gains you anything. And (as he says in elsewhere) “This is not a work that you do, faith is a gift. Lest anyone should boast.”
Great post, Devin. Thank you.
> “You don’t gain anything in God’s eyes by being circumcised, and you don’t gain anything in God’s eyes by not being circumcised.”
Fair enough…
> “What we do, or what we don’t do, is of no avail.”
Does the text really say this? How do you reconcile this with “…but keeping the commandments of God”?
Hi Steve,
You said,
Steve Martin says:
September 21, 2012 at 7:33 am
Circumcision being an act that we do, Paul is saying that what we do is neither here, nor there.
You don’t gain anything in God’s eyes by being circumcised, and you don’t gain anything in God’s eyes by not being circumcised. What we do, or what we don’t do, is of no avail.
You’re leaving out half of the equation. The entire sentence says:
For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God.
So, circumcision doesn’t matter.
And, uncircumcision doesn’t matter.
But keeping the Commandments of God is the only thing that matters.
Now, if we go back and get a bit of context, St. Paul is saying that it doesn’t matter if we are circumcised, or if we are not, if we are slave or we are free, all that matters is that we obey God and keep His Commands.
By no means does that say that we are free to disavow the Word of God and behave anyway that we want, and simply claim to have faith.
It is only by faith,
NOT unless you don’t mind contradicting Scripture. Because elsewhere, Scripture is clear:
James 2:24
King James Version (KJV)
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
in Christ, and Him alone that gains you anything.
Nowhere does scripture say this either. God has always expected us to follow those whom He places in our path to guide us to salvation:
Hebrews 13:7
King James Version (KJV)
7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
This is why He raised up Moses, the Prophets and King David and Solomon etc. etc.
And (as he says in elsewhere) “This is not a work that you do, faith is a gift. Lest anyone should boast.”
Give us the Chapter and verse and as good Bereans, we’ll examine. In the meantime, we’ll continue examining what Devin provided. He is also correct about this. Keeping the Commandments is the same thing as faith working by love and as the New Creation. Because it is those who keep the Commandments and persevere in good works who attain the New Creation:
Revelation 22:14
King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
It is they who receive eternal life:
Romans 2:7
King James Version (KJV)
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
It is they who are justified:
Romans 2:13
King James Version (KJV)
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Great post, Devin. Thank you.
With that, I agree.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Duh, Paul talks about faith alone in Romans 3:28 (LIV – Luther’s Inspired Version).
Don’t forget Galatians 6:15!!!!!
“Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation.”
BAM!
Oh snap I forgot about that one. So what counts is: faith working in love, the new creation, and keeping the commandments.
You don’t get zilch for keeping the commandments. It is what we are supposed to do. Jesus said that “you don’t praise a slave for doing what he is supposed to do.”
And NO ONE keeps the commandments. “No one is good, no not one.” St. James tells us that” if you break one commandment, it is if you have broken them all.”
Turn to Christ and His forgiveness for sinners. Real sinners. The kind that, deep down, we know that we are.
Steve,
Sorry, but there is a lot of confusion/error with your comments. I understand where you’re coming from, so I know why you’re saying that, but I’d like to comment on your words to show you how that cannot be.
SM: You don’t get zilch for keeping the commandments.
N: Jesus said “if you want to enter eternal life, keep the commandments”; and in John 15 Jesus said you will only abide in Him if you keep His Commandments. To say we get zilch is more than an exaggeration and a serious error. Of course, we are not *owed* anything for keeping them, but God is pleased to reward us for keeping them.
SM: It is what we are supposed to do.
N: Yes, by nature we’re bound to; but God is pleased to attach a reward (eternal life) for keeping them.
SM: Jesus said that “you don’t praise a slave for doing what he is supposed to do.”
N: The context is that we should not have the entitlement mindset. Yet what did Jesus promise? That we would be given thrones and would co-rule with Him! Mind=Blown.
SM: And NO ONE keeps the commandments.
N: That’s simply unbiblical and dangerous. Luke 1:5-6 mentions two people who did. Nobody is sinless, but then again sinlessness is never part of the equation. Nowhere in the Bible does God demand fallen men to obey 100% and never sin. In fact, God is repeatedly offering forgiveness and tells us to pray “forgive us our tresspasses”.
SM: “No one is good, no not one.”
N: The context is not talking about believers/Christians, but rather those persecuting God’s people. Context.
SM: St. James tells us that” if you break one commandment, it is if you have broken them all.”
N: No, he’s saying you cannot single out commandments to keep and what to disregard. You’re reading James as saying, “Well, since you sinned once you’re perpetually branded a law-breaking rotten sinner; but thanks for trying.” Such a ‘gospel’ gives no motivation for living virtuously at all.
SM: Turn to Christ and His forgiveness for sinners. Real sinners. The kind that, deep down, we know that we are.
N: If we are ‘sinners deep down’, how do you explain Paul calling us a new creation? David saying he was ‘washed thoroughly from my iniquities’? John saying “the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin”? Such a Christian view is Nihilist-Defeatist, not the view of Scripture and the Fathers.
Hi again Steve,
Nick’s response was excellent! I’ll add my two bits anyway.
You said:
Steve Martin says:
September 21, 2012 at 6:11 pm
You don’t get zilch for keeping the commandments.
Please produce this from Scripture. Here’s what I see:
Matthew 19:17
King James Version (KJV)
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
John 14:21
King James Version (KJV)
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Revelation 22:14
King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Please produce even one verse that says that we get zilch if we keep the Commandments.
It is what we are supposed to do. Jesus said that “you don’t praise a slave for doing what he is supposed to do.”
That’s not what He said.
1st Jesus produced a human example. Not a Godly one:
Hebrews 6:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
2nd He said the slave should not expect a reward from his human master.
3rd He did not say that the slave would not receive a reward from God.
And NO ONE keeps the commandments. “No one is good, no not one.”
You are mistaken. Scripture is clear that some have kept the Commandments:
Luke 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
St. James tells us that” if you break one commandment, it is if you have broken them all.”
Nick answered it perfectly. That doesn’t mean that we can’t keep the Commandments. That means that if a man keeps all the Commandments but one, then he is liable to all of them. For instance, an adulterer who helps an old lady across the street is still an adulterer and remains on the wrong side of God’s law.
But a man who repents of his sins and in atonement gives money to the poor, for that man, all is clean:
Luke 11:41
But rather give alms of such things as ye have; and, behold, all things are clean unto you.
Zachias did that and he was praised by Christ:
Luke 19:8 And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord: Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold. 9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
Turn to Christ and His forgiveness for sinners. Real sinners. The kind that, deep down, we know that we are.
You can’t just turn to Christ. You have to turn to Him and obey.
Matthew 7:21
King James Version (KJV)
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
That is a message that is loud and clear in Scripture. Faith alone, is dead.
Sincerely,
De Maria
It’s not unbiblical. It’s the truth that no one keeps the commandments.
Jesus said that we “must be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect”.
Who has done that?
Jesus told the disciples that “they must sell all their possessions, otherwise they cannot be his disciples.”
Who is doing that?
Jesus said that “if you are angry with your brother, then you are a murderer”.
Who amongst us has not been angry at someone?
Jesus told the rich young ruler, who said that he had kept all the commandments since his youth, to “sell everything he had, give it to the poor and follow him (Jesus). And the young man went away sorrowful.
We don’t keep the commandments. If we say that we are without sin we are deluded.
Those who actually believe they are doing a good job of keeping the commandments are in danger of pride, on top of being delusional.
__
Now…here’s the good news (you’ve heard that term before)…
Christ died for and loves sinners.
Hi again Steve,
Steve Martin says:
September 21, 2012 at 7:54 pm
It’s not unbiblical.
Yes, it is.
It’s the truth that no one keeps the commandments.
No, its not:
Luke 1:
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
The example you used before is about atheists and people who do not believe in God. Scripture is clear that they are all sinners.
Psalm 53:1
King James Version (KJV)
1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.
Jesus said that we “must be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect”
No He didn’t.
Matthew 5:47-48
King James Version (KJV)
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
It is a suggestion, not a command.
Who has done that?
Zecharias and Elizabeth, St. Paul, the Apostles, Mary, the Canonized Sts. and many more which aren’t recorded in anyone’s history but whom God knows.
Jesus told the disciples that “they must sell all their possessions, otherwise they cannot be his disciples.”
Please provide the verse. Because even in Scripture we find that a rich man was His disciple:
Matthew 27:57
King James Version (KJV)
57 When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus’ disciple:
Who is doing that?
Many of the Canonized Saints, St. Francis of Assissi comes prominently to mind. Ministerial priests give vows of poverty. Many of the religious orders also do that.
Jesus said that “if you are angry with your brother, then you are a murderer”.
Who amongst us has not been angry at someone?
Who amongst us has been angry and then forgiven and been forgiven, repented and confessed their sin to God?
Jesus told the rich young ruler, who said that he had kept all the commandments since his youth, to “sell everything he had, give it to the poor and follow him (Jesus). And the young man went away sorrowful.
So? Is that what you would do? Many thousands in the annals of Catholic Church history have gladly sold all their possessions and become one with Christ.
We don’t keep the commandments.
Maybe you don’t. I’m keeping them pretty well right now.
If we say that we are without sin we are deluded.
I have repented from and confessed my sins. Haven’t you?
Those who actually believe they are doing a good job of keeping the commandments are in danger of pride, on top of being delusional.
Those who believe they have saved themselves by their faith alone have exalted themselves and put themselves in the place of God.
As for us, we don’t judge ourselves. We await for God to judge our works.
Now…here’s the good news (you’ve heard that term before)…
Christ died for and loves sinners.
Excellent news indeed. But if you remain a sinner, you can forget it. Jesus came to call sinners to repentance. Those are the sinners He came to save. The ones who would discard their sinful ways and turn to Him and live:
Luke 5:32
King James Version (KJV)
32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Sincerely,
De Maria
This is a very good listen, and may explain some things as to why we have the hardest time letting go of ‘what we do’.
http://theoldadam.com/2011/12/21/the-root-of-our-objections-to-the-complete-and-total-grace-of-god/
Enjoy.
DeMaria,
You must not think too much of St. Paul and Romans 7.
You must think that wasn’t a Christian writing that.
You also, I’m sure, don’t think too much about the sins of omission. They are every bit as deadly as the sins of commission.
I’m sure you live on a thin margin of income and give the rest to the poor. I’m sure you’ve sold all your possessions (except your computer) and have given it all to the poor. And I’m sure you routinely visit nursing homes and jails and work with the homeless.
You really ought reread the Pharisee and the tax collector parable and see where you fit in. You don’t sound very much like the real sinner who went away justified…but more like the guy who thought he was doing a pretty good job of it.
Hello Steve,
Steve Martin says:
September 21, 2012 at 10:51 pm
DeMaria,
You must not think too much of St. Paul and Romans 7.
I think very highly of St. Paul. I emulate his life to the best of my ability. I also love all the Word of God, including Romans 7. So, you’re wrong on that point.
You must think that wasn’t a Christian writing that.
I know that St. Paul is a Christian. And still a member of the Body of Christ to whom I pray almost daily. So, you’re wrong on that point also.
You also, I’m sure, don’t think too much about the sins of omission.
I don’t think you know what a sin of omission is. Otherwise you would believe in faith and works. If you believe in sins of omission, then you automatically contradict faith alone. Think about it.
They are every bit as deadly as the sins of commission.
Agreed. That is why faith alone is dead. Read Matt 25:31-46. That is the definition of sins of omission.
I’m sure you live on a thin margin of income and give the rest to the poor. I’m sure you’ve sold all your possessions (except your computer) and have given it all to the poor. And I’m sure you routinely visit nursing homes and jails and work with the homeless.
You really ought reread the Pharisee and the tax collector parable and see where you fit in. You don’t sound very much like the real sinner who went away justified…but more like the guy who thought he was doing a pretty good job of it.
1. Whether I do enough to merit God’s favor or not, is between God and I. I bet you haven’t seen this in Scripture either:
Romans 14:4
King James Version (KJV)
4 Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
God is my Judge. Not you.
2. It seems you need to reread the verse. I’m not the one exalting myself over another. It is you who are exalting yourself over me.
But you also will be judged by God, no matter how much you claim to be saved by sins of omission (faith alone).
Sincerely,
De Maria
De Maria,
I’m not judging you.
I’m sure you are doing all of those things that Jesus said that we need to do.
By your own admission, you are doing a “pretty good job of it”.
Hello Steve,
Steve Martin says:
September 22, 2012 at 8:14 pm
De Maria,
I’m not judging you.
I’m sure you are doing all of those things that Jesus said that we need to do.
By your own admission, you are doing a “pretty good job of it”.
No I didn’t. And the way you mangled my words in your “quote” is the same problem that Protestants have mangling the Bible. I said, and I quote:
“I’m keeping them pretty well right now.”
Tell me, how many Commandments does one transgress while evangelizing the Gospel on a computer? Because that is what I was doing then and am doing again, right now.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Steve,
I’m sure you’re offering and olive branch, but there’s no need. I’m not upset. Nor do I mean to offend. However, I’m simply illustrating the fact that it is Protestants who are taught to be judgmental.
Protestants not only judge themselves saved but they judge all others condemned. You are taught to do this by your non-biblical traditions. Because Scripture tells you that God is our judge. There are many things that you can judge, but the ultimate salvation or condemnation of a soul, even your own, is not one of them. That is God’s domain.
Sincerely,
De Maria
De Maria,
I’m only stating the facts. I’m not upset with you. I’m trying to help you to understand the the severity of God’s law and it’s perfect demand. If you will not see it, then you will not see it.
I’m not your judge, nor are you mine. But we will be judged.
Jesus said that He came for the sick. And that the healthy do not need a physician.
I know that I haven’t done a very good job at living the Christian life. That I’m often self-occupied and too busy for others. I know that I have trouble letting go of my “hard-earned” possessions and money. But that’s just me.
I’m happy for you that you have a handle on all of this.
Sincerely,
Steve Martin
Hi again Steve,
Steve Martin says:
September 23, 2012 at 8:57 am
De Maria,
I’m only stating the facts.
No, Steve, you’re not. If you were, you could support your claims with Scripture. But you can’t.
I’m not upset with you.
I didn’t say you were.
I’m trying to help you to understand the the severity of God’s law and it’s perfect demand.
And I am trying to help you understand that faith alone is a tradition of men.
If you will not see it, then you will not see it.
Again, God is my judge. As for you, since you claim to see, I’ll let Scripture explain it to you:
John 9:41
Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
I’m not your judge, nor are you mine. But we will be judged.
By our works:
Revelation 22:12-15
King James Version (KJV)
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Romans 2:1-9
King James Version (KJV)
1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. 2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. 3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Jesus said that He came for the sick. And that the healthy do not need a physician.
That is a double entendre. It means that those who exalt themselves have received their reward. But not God’s.
Matthew 6:2
Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
Protestants can save themselves by their faith alone all they want. They have their reward. But not God’s.
I know that I haven’t done a very good job at living the Christian life. That I’m often self-occupied and too busy for others. I know that I have trouble letting go of my “hard-earned” possessions and money. But that’s just me.
I’m happy for you that you have a handle on all of this.
Thank you.
Sincerely,
De Maria
De Maria,
That’s all for me. You can have last word.
Thoughtful post Devin.
Nick and De Maria have done a good job in this thread showing how Catholics sometimes beat the Protestants at their own game: that is, providing direct quotes from Scripture that undermine certain Protestant/Reformed dogmas. Steve does not seem to be offering any real engagement or alternative explanation for the meaning of the plethora of verses raised by the Catholics here that directly contradict him, he seems rather to only pit other verses against them, and reiterate his position.
Pax,
Bradley
Hi Bradley,
Peace to you as well. I like your play on words “Theophilos” and “Logos”. At least, I assume that its a play on words. Or does it mean something?
Sincerely,
De Maria
De Maria,
It’s a play on words, and it means something. You were on the right track with your guess. The name represents what I assumed would be the two dominant themes of my blog: theology, philosophy, and dialogue. T h e o • p h i l o g u e was just an amalgamation of these, but the • symbol separates the “theology” from the rest.
Pax,
Bradley
I think the interaction above is an amazing “real time” illustration of Pastor Jason Stellman’s realization that he too was viewing justification in through a very narrow lens comprised of St. Paul’s writings in two books alone. “As a Protestant minister, I had always operated under the assumption that the fullest treatment of the gospel, and of justification in particular, came from the apostle Paul, and that the rest of what the New Testament had to say on these issues should be filtered through him. But as I began to investigate again things that I had thought were long-settled for me, I began to discover just how problematic that hermeneutical approach really was. If justification by faith alone was indeed “the article on which the church stands or falls,” as Reformed theology claimed, then wouldn’t we expect it to have been taught by Jesus himself, somewhere? Moreover, wouldn’t John have taught it, too? And Peter, and James? Shoot, wouldn’t Paul himself have taught the imputation of alien righteousness somewhere outside of just two of his thirteen epistles?
Having realized that I was using a few select (and hermeneutically debatable) passages from Romans and Galatians as the filter through which I understood everything else the New Testament had to say about salvation, I began to conclude that such an approach was as arbitrary as it was irresponsible. I then sought to identify a paradigm, or simple statement of the gospel, that provided more explanatory value than Sola Fide did. As I hope to unpack in more detail eventually, I have come to understand the gospel in terms of the New Covenant gift of the Spirit, procured through the sacrifice and resurrection of Christ, who causes fruit to be borne in our lives by reproducing the image of the Son in the adopted children of the Father. If love of God and neighbor fulfills the law, and if the fruit of the Spirit is love, having been shed abroad by the Spirit in our hearts, then it seems to follow that the promise of the gospel is equivalent with the promise of the New Covenant that God’s law will no longer be external to the believer, but will be written upon his mind and heart, such that its righteous demands are fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. And again unsurprisingly, when I turned to the early Church fathers, and especially Augustine, it was this very understanding of the gospel that I encountered over and over again.”
The reformed way of viewing scripture as best explained for us and understood by a former reformed theologian truly is that they see everything through a lens based on Romans and Galatians, ignoring or downplaying Jesus emphasis on obeying the commandments in the gospels (Matt 25) and denying the role of works in the epistle of James. The reality is Luther knew that Saint James really did mean that faith without works is dead. He knew this with such certainty, he desired to remove it from the canon of scripture so it wouldn’t conflict with his new and unscriptural doctrine of justification by faith alone. “I wish I could just throw Jimmy in the stove.”
just one more thought on St Paul and St. James:
“Many sweat to reconcile St. Paul and St. James, but in vain. ‘Faith justifies’ and ‘faith does not justify’ contradict each other flatly. If any one can harmonize them I will give him my doctor’s hood and let him call me a fool.” -Dr. Luther 1520
“Saint Paul and Saint James never contradict themselves. One focused on mosaic law, the other on the good behavior that was needed to accompany a proclamation of faith. Clearly Luther was wrong about his sola system by misunderstanding this. If anyone can’t see this I will give him my stethoscope and let him call himself a fool.” -Dr. Rentler 2012