At Ignitum Today I have a new post up that explains how to argue with someone who claims the early Church was “generally reliable” in her doctrines:
The first thing to ask is, how do you know that the Church was reliable on the New Testament canon but unreliable on, say, the veneration of the saints? How do you know she got the NT canon correct but erred on the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, or on baptismal regeneration? A Protestant who takes the position that the Church was “generally reliable” must provide a principled way for knowing when the Church was reliable and when she was not.
We use the law and gospel as our baseline.
We look at everything through those lenses. The law to expose us. And the gospel to free us, liberate us, and give us Christ with no strings attached.
The proclamation of Christ Jesus through the law and gospel has been creating and sustaining faith since day 1, of the church, and that’s good enough for us.
For an example; we don’t pull a text off the page of Scripture…we pull the gospel out of the text.
How do you know you interpret the gospel accurately? Is N.T. Wright’s “New Perspective” correct? Is Luther’s interpretation that required removing books and referring to James as straw correct?
The law and gospel alone are not sufficient for discerning truth. I should also add that I can’t find this “Christ with no strings attached” you speak of.
Seraphim,
The same questions can be asked of you. How do you know the church of Rome interprets Scripture correctly?
That’s it,……………answer a question by asking another question!
anton says:
March 4, 2013 at 5:34 pm
That’s it,……………answer a question by asking another question!
Bob doesn’t answer questions. He’s simply trying to shove his beliefs down our throats and could care less about mature discussion and dialogue.
How do I know that the Church that decided what books should and shouldn’t be included in the Bible interprets scripture correctly? I don’t know if I would claim to know such a thing, but I believe that there must be an infallible beacon to which we look for truth, and a collection of books and letters filled with nuance and ambiguity cannot be any such source. That is why there are interpretations of the gospels ranging from that on the “new perspectives on Paul” people to the various reformed interpretations.
I love this quote:
“All upright sacred books agree on one thing, that they all collectively preach and promote Christ. Likewise, the true criterion for criticizing all books is to see whether they promote Christ or not, since all scripture manifests Christ. Whatever does not teach Christ is not apostolic, even if Peter and Paul should teach it. On the other hand, whatever preaches Christ is apostolic, even if Judas, Annas, Pilate, and Herod should do it!” (LW 35:396)
From Marty (Luther, that is)
I love this quote:
“All upright sacred books agree on one thing, that they all collectively preach and promote Christ. Likewise, the true criterion for criticizing all books is to see whether they promote Christ or not, since all scripture manifests Christ. Whatever does not teach Christ is not apostolic, even if Peter and Paul should teach it. On the other hand, whatever preaches Christ is apostolic, even if Judas, Annas, Pilate, and Herod should do it!” (LW 35:396)
From Marty (Luther, that is)
Sounds really witty. But I don’t see Martin Luther in Scripture. What I do see is that the Church is called the Pillar of Truth (1 Tim 3:15). And every book in your Bible was discerned by the Catholic Church and put in the Bible by the Catholic Church. Therefore, you owe a debt to the Catholic Church, but like all Protestants ungratefully deny the debt they owe.
Seraphim,
The same questions can be asked of you. How do you know the church of Rome interprets Scripture correctly?
Scripture says that the Catholic Church teaches the Wisdom of God (Eph 3:10). That is how we know that the Catholic Church is infallible and TEACHES the Scriptures which she canonized and wrote without any error.
But what we can’t find in Scripture is the additions which Protestants have made to it. No Sola Scriptura, no sola fide, no permission to use contraceptives, no homosexual clergy, no divorce and remarriage etc.
We use the gospel lens to interpret Scripture and the Reformation principle that Scripture interprets Scripture.
We trust in that because the Word will make it’s own way, and faith is created and sustained when the gospel is proclaimed. Romans 1:16
By its very nature scripture cannot be the sort of thing that interprets itself. Words are interpreted by beings who are able to relate signifiers to referents. Unless a such a being is involved no interpretation is taking place.
We believe that the Being who is in charge of this faith giving and creating business, uses the gospel (Romans 1:16) to accomplish His good and gracious will. He does this, not only in Scripture, but in the preached Word and in the sacraments, and in the consolation of the brethren.
As long as tradition lines up with Scripture, there is no problem. But the gospel must always remain preeminent.
Steve Martin says:
March 5, 2013 at 1:09 am
We believe that the Being who is in charge of this faith giving and creating business, uses the gospel (Romans 1:16) to accomplish His good and gracious will.
So do we.
He does this, not only in Scripture, but in the preached Word and in the sacraments, and in the consolation of the brethren.
Hey Bob! Do you see these in the Bible?
I guess you and Bob only miss the teaching on the Pope.
As long as tradition lines up with Scripture, there is no problem. But the gospel must always remain preeminent.
All Catholic Traditions line up with NT Scripture because NT Scripture is based upon Catholic Tradition. Jesus Christ did not write a word of Scripture. He established a Church and commanded that Church to teach His Traditions.
Protestant traditions which do no line up with the Catholic Church, also do not line up with Scripture.
Steve Martin says:
March 4, 2013 at 9:36 pm
We use the gospel lens to interpret Scripture and the Reformation principle that Scripture interprets Scripture.
Ok, here’s one Scripture that interprets itself:
2 Thessalonians 2:15
King James Version (KJV)
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
Hold the Traditions. Not Scripture alone.
Hebrews 13:7
King James Version (KJV)
7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
Listen to your rulers who teach you the Word of God in the Church. Therefore not by Scripture alone.
We trust in that because the Word will make it’s own way, and faith is created and sustained when the gospel is proclaimed. Romans 1:16
The right Gospel. Not the false gospel of the Protestants:
Galatians 1:8
King James Version (KJV)
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
What it means when Protestants say Scripture interprets Scripture is simply the idea that we can use scripture to shed light on other passages within the Bible.
Bob says:
March 5, 2013 at 11:43 am
What it means when Protestants say Scripture interprets Scripture is simply the idea that we can use scripture to shed light on other passages within the Bible.
Lets go through Scripture and see where you claim it teaches:
Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, contraception, divorce and remarriage
I’m ready when you are.
De Maria,
Lets look at Sola Fide i.e. salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone.
God declares ungodly sinners righteous by imputing Christ’s righteousness to them (Romans 4:5, 5:8, 5:19).
Bob says:
March 6, 2013 at 9:51 pm
De Maria,
Lets look at Sola Fide i.e. salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone.
God declares ungodly sinners righteous by imputing Christ’s righteousness to them (Romans 4:5, 5:8, 5:19).
I don’t see any of that anywhere in Scripture. And I don’t see it in the verses you provide.
Salvation is by obedience to Christ:
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
And it entails work:
Philippians 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
And if you don’t work, you are not justified. Justification is necessary in order for one to be saved. God does not save the unrighteous:
James 2:24
King James Version (KJV)
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
1 Corinthians 6:8-10
King James Version (KJV)
8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
You can try to twist the Word of God all you want to, but you can’t twist your way out of that:
Revelation 22:13-15
King James Version (KJV)
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
De Maria,
Before we go on to the passages you quote let’s first understand in context what Paul is saying in Romans. What does he mean by the verses I quoted?
You didn’t quote any.
Are you ever going to quote those verses and exegete them, so we can see what you mean? Or have you recognized that they don’t support your errors?
I referenced Romans 4:5, 5:8, 5:19.
To understand Sola Fide we must first understand these 2 questions:
Why did Christ have to come into the world?
What is wrong with mankind?
Bob says:
March 8, 2013 at 11:33 pm
I referenced Romans 4:5, 5:8, 5:19.
Ok.
To understand Sola Fide we must first understand these 2 questions:
Why did Christ have to come into the world?
Luke 5:32
I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Repentance is a work.
What is wrong with mankind?
We have inherited a fallen nature. Our first parents were made with original justice. They sinned and lost that original justice. When they passed on their nature, they passed down original sin.
There is no such thing as “total depravity”. Only certain people, like Pharao and Herod in Scripture, become totally depraved. But EVERYONE is born with an innocent although fallen nature. That is why Jesus said:
Mark 10:14
But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
Would you say that mas’s nature has been corrupted by sin? Does man deserve God’s condemnation for his sin?
Bob says:
March 9, 2013 at 12:14 pm
Would you say that mas’s nature has been corrupted by sin?
Not totally. According to Jesus Christ, heaven is made up of innocents which resemble little children.
Therefore, although little children are born with original sin on their soul, they are not thereby condemned by God.
Does man deserve God’s condemnation for his sin?
Only if he intentionally rejects God’s will and does not repent of his sins before he dies. The Catechism says:
1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.
Anyone who repents and turns to God, will be saved by God if he shows fruits of his repentance by persevering in good works throughout his life.
Revelation 22:14
King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Would you agree that all of mankind is fallen i.e. deserving of the wrath of God for sin? Would you agree that Christ came into the world to die for sin?
Bob says:
March 9, 2013 at 4:37 pm
Would you agree that all of mankind is fallen
That is Catholic Doctrine. It is called the doctrine of Original Sin.
i.e. deserving of the wrath of God for sin?
No. I already answered this question above. If we were deserving of wrath, Christ would not have said that children were innocent. Christ said,
Mark 10:14
But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
Only those who commit sin with full volition. That means with the full intention of their will and persist in doing so to the end of their lives, are deserving of the wrath of God.
I think you are making reference to a certain verse which Protestants twist and misconstrue in order to support their doctrine of total depravity.
Scripture says:
Ephesians 2:3
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
That means that we were born with Original Sin. God was angry with Adam and Eve and punished them by kicking them out of paradise. Paradise symbolizes the condition of being born with Original Justice. Original Justice means being born united to God. Adam and Eve turned their back on God. God became angry and punished them. Kicked them out of paradise and we were born outside of paradise. Outside of Original Justice. That is why we are children of wrath. We are born in Original Sin, the product of God’s wrath when He punished Adam and Eve.
We are born with a fallen nature. With the inclination to commit sin. But the inclination to commit sin is not the same thing as committing sin. When we are born we are innocent of any wrong doing. That is why the Kingdom of God is made up of such as these children. Because little children are innocent.
Would you agree that Christ came into the world to die for sin?
Jesus said why He came into the world:
Matthew 9:13
But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Jesus came into the world to save sinners. He died that we might have life and that, more abundantly.
Jesus never said that children were innocent. The mere fact that your church baptizes infants proves they realize they are sinners by nature even though they never committed a sin.
Can you define what the doctrine of total depravity means?
Bob says:
March 10, 2013 at 11:41 am
Jesus never said that children were innocent.
What does this mean, then?
Luke 18:16
But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
The mere fact that your church baptizes infants proves they realize they are sinners by nature even though they never committed a sin.
1. You are contradicted yourself. If they never committed a sin, they are innocent of any wrong doing.
2. The Catholic Church baptizes infants because Baptism washes away Original Sin and makes us born again, children of God.
Can you define what the doctrine of total depravity means?
That’s your department. Its not our doctrine. It is a Protestant error, a doctrine of men. So, please enlighten us. Make sure to provide the Scripture and verse to support your definition.
Bob,
Can you define Sola Scriptura and show us the definition in Scripture?
Bob,
Protestants say that this Scripture supports Sola Scriptura:
2 Timothy 3:15-16
King James Version (KJV)
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Please explain how this can be so since the verse does not say “Sola Scriptura” (i.e.Scripture alone) anywhere? And the entire Epistle is about Teaching. Not about reading or passing out Bibles?
We can go through it in detail whenever you’re ready. You explaining your doctrine. Me explaining Catholic doctrine.
How can you be against something (total depravity) if you don’t know what it means?
Infant baptism acknowledges that infants have a sin nature and that they are guilty of sin even if they never have sinned. They are not innocent i.e. pure and so your church baptizes infants.
Bob says:
March 10, 2013 at 4:38 pm
How can you be against something (total depravity) if you don’t know what it means?
I know what it means. But no matter what I say, you’ll say, “that’s not it.” So, tell us what it is and show us from Scripture or admit that it isn’t in Scripture. For sure, the words, “total depravity” are not there. So, that’s strike one for that doctrine, since you insist upon explicit references.
Infant baptism acknowledges that infants have a sin nature and that they are guilty of sin even if they never have sinned.
You are still contradicting yourself. No one can be guilty of sin who hasn’t sinned.
They are not innocent i.e. pure and so your church baptizes infants.
They are innocent of actual sin. But are conceived in Original Sin. Therefore they are washed of Original Sin and are born again, children of God.
I see you ignored my other questions. That is par for the course. Your theology can’t stand up to biblical inquiry. It is based upon man made false doctrines.
If you want to defend the RC faith then be sure you know what others believe before you dismiss it. This is the second time you have done this. The first was Sola Scriptura and now this.
If infants are not of sin then why are they baptized to cleanse them of original sin? Is it not true that your church teaches that if they die without being baptized they will go to hell? If they don’t teach that today, did they in the past?
The doctrine of Sola Scriptura does not claim that there is a verse or passage that says Scripture alone. 2 Timothy 3:15-16 is about one of the characteristics of the Scripture.
Note also there is nothing about traditions outside of Scripture being inspired or inerrant.
Bob says:
March 10, 2013 at 9:22 pm
If you want to defend the RC faith then be sure you know what others believe before you dismiss it.
I know what you believe is not in Scripture. And that is enough for me to dismiss it.
This is the second time you have done this. The first was Sola Scriptura and now this.
Both of which are false doctrines which contradict the Word of God in Tradition and Scripture.
If infants are not of sin then why are they baptized to cleanse them of original sin?
You answered your question. To cleanse them of Original Sin.
Is it not true that your church teaches that if they die without being baptized they will go to hell?
It is not true. But your denomination does teach that.
If they don’t teach that today, did they in the past?
No.
The doctrine of Sola Scriptura does not claim that there is a verse or passage that says Scripture alone.
Then according to your definition, Sola Scriptura is a false doctrine.
2 Timothy 3:15-16 is about one of the characteristics of the Scripture.
But not about Sola Scriptura. Great! Thanks for that admission.
Note also there is nothing about traditions outside of Scripture being inspired or inerrant.
I already showed you that there is. 2 Pet 1:19-21
The New Testament is based upon those Traditions which the Holy Spirit inspired the Apostles to Teach:
Acts 2
King James Version (KJV)
1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
Note that only those added to the Church were to be saved.
Now this is so silly I just had to chime in. When we are born we have “contracted” original sin, not “committed” sin. We baptize first and foremost because our Lord told us to. There’s also the impetus of that somewhat scary passage (John 3:5): “Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” And finally, Luke 18:16: “Suffer children to come to me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.” (Forbid them not!)
Joe,
Baptism is not first. Repentance and faith in Christ precedes baptism.
No, grace comes first. Grace, including the grace of repentance, is a gift of God. Baptism of infants is one occasion where man’s helplessness is obvious and the grace is clearly something that he was unable to give to himself. Those of us who were baptized as infants will go through our lives knowing that we recieved an amazing gift — the cleansing of original sin — through no action or ability of our own. And those of us who *have* infants are not going to forbid them from receiving God’s grace… our Lord commanded us “forbid them not”.
Infant baptism is not taught in Scripture. The problem with infant baptism is that it creates baptized unbelievers.
The passage where Christ blesses the children is not in the context of baptism.
I don’t see where it’s forbidden in scripture, or where a specific age limit is provided. I do see in scripture where it is clear that grace is a gift of God, not something that we initiate. Instead, it is up to us to co-operate with grace. Infant baptism (from the point of view of the baptized) is a grace. From the point of view of the parents and community, it’s co-operation with our savior’s will and commands.
Protestant/magical theology at its root says that if YOU do X, our Lord is bound by a legal loophole to let you into heaven, and “no backsies” are allowed. Hence you see a “problem” of unbelievers being baptized. In your view, God should only be allowed to shed his grace on those who already “believe”, whatever that means. (For most protestants, it means they have said a magical formulation like “I choose Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior”.) Even after this, God is not allowed to freely give his grace, rather he’s bound to do so. Therefore the “faithful” “believer” is free to go out and sin as much as they like.
I’ve answered all your questions, Bob. But you haven’t answered any of mine because all your beliefs are false. None of them are in Scripture. All your beliefs which disagree with Catholic Teaching, also disagree with the Bible.
You really have not answered all my questions. You think that quoting Scriptures without contexts proves you are right and I’m wrong. Sorry, that kind of method won’t work here.
To understand sola fide we must understand what God requires, the fall of man and the solution to man’s predicament. Once you do, then you will understand why sola fide is true.
Bob says:
March 10, 2013 at 9:27 pm
You really have not answered all my questions.
Yes, I have. Thoroughly.
You think that quoting Scriptures without contexts proves you are right and I’m wrong. Sorry, that kind of method won’t work here.
I have explained the context and have shown where your claims aren’t even in Scripture.
To understand sola fide we must understand what God requires, the fall of man and the solution to man’s predicament. Once you do, then you will understand why sola fide is true.
Is that an admission that Sola Fide is not in Scripture? Because it sounds like you’re saying that in order to accept that doctrine, I must simply believe you. Because Scripture says:
James 2:24
King James Version (KJV)
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
No amount of twisting will shake that fact.
And I put my trust in the Catholic Church. The organization which Jesus Christ established and commanded to Teach His Word throughout the world and throughout time. The same organization which wrote the New Testament and compiled the Old Testament and then put both together in the Bible.
What is the context for James 2:24? Why does James bring up works in the context of faith?
Bob says:
March 10, 2013 at 10:23 pm
What is the context for James 2:24?
Faith and works.
James 2
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Why does James bring up works in the context of faith?
Because only the faithful will do the works of God. Those who claim to be faithful but refuse to do the works of God prove their faithlessness by their lack of action:
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Right. James is not saying a man’s works can save him. Rather he is saying that if you claim to have faith, then that faith will demonstrate itself in works. Otherwise its dead.
Let me ask you a question.
If a man has faith but does not have good works, can that faith save him? (James 2:14)
I’ll give you a hint:
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Works in and of themselves cannot save a man. See Eph 2:8-9. James point is that the only evidence of true faith is works. If you have no works, then you don’t have a living-saving faith. He is disputing the notion that mere intellectual faith (believing facts about Christ) void of a commitment to active obedience is dead.
Bob says:
March 11, 2013 at 10:41 am
Works in and of themselves cannot save a man. See Eph 2:8-9.
1. That is correct. We are saved by God. To be more precise, those who do the works of God are saved by God. Those who do not do the works of God are not saved by God.
2. That teaching is clearer if you include v. 10. Protestants generally leave it off because it destroys all their assumptions. But if you want to be honest with yourself and with the Word of God, you should include it.
James point is that the only evidence of true faith is works. If you have no works, then you don’t have a living-saving faith.
Ipso facto, without a living-saving faith we are not saved.
Lets put that all together.
If you have no works, you have no faith. If you have no faith, God will not save you.
Repeat that 100 times. No works, no faith, no salvation.
He is disputing the notion that mere intellectual faith (believing facts about Christ) void of a commitment to active obedience is dead.
Speaking like that, you will soon become Catholic.
Actually it is you who is speaking like a Protestant. Here is what Trent says:
“CANON 9: “If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.”
CANON 12: “If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ’s sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified … let him be accursed”
Trent denies the gospel.
Wow?! Are you ever confused.
The Catholic Church says faith alone is dead.
Trent says faith alone is dead.
The Gospel says faith alone is dead.
You admitted that faith without works is not a saving faith. Essentially admitting also that faith alone is dead.
How can you now claim that Trent denies the Gospel when the Gospel says that faith alone is dead?
You are confused and confusing. It is clear that Satan has really messed you up. You don’t know if you’re coming or going. One thing is clear, you have no business teaching the Word of God. None whatsoever.
Trent is talking about what justifies a man before God. It is saying that such an idea is false. Romans 5:1 says otherwise:
“Therefore, having been justified by faith,…”
We are justified by faith in Christ alone who lived a perfect life for us and payment for sin is imputed to us. Justification is based entirely on the sacrifice of Christ by His shed blood-”…having now been justified by His blood.. Rom 5:9
Therefore, we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.
Rome denies this in the 2 canons I quoted.
Bob says:
March 11, 2013 at 5:30 pm
Trent is talking about what justifies a man before God. It is saying that such an idea is false. Romans 5:1 says otherwise:
“Therefore, having been justified by faith,…”
But not faith alone. The faith that justifies is the saving faith which results in good works:
James 2:14-17
King James Version (KJV)
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
We are justified by faith
But not by faith alone.
in Christ alone
In Christ and His Church:
Hebrews 13:17
King James Version (KJV)
17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
who lived a perfect life for us and payment for sin is imputed to us.
Show me that in Scripture. I’d like to see that” payment for sin is imputed to us” in Scripture.
Here’s what I see:
Philippians 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Justification is based entirely on the sacrifice of Christ by His shed blood-”…having now been justified by His blood.. Rom 5:9
Therefore, we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.
Again, that is not in Scripture. Redemption is based upon Christ’s sacrifice. But Justification is based upon our good works done in faith.
Romans 2:13
King James Version (KJV)
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rome denies this in the 2 canons I quoted.
The Catholic Church denies the false doctrine of faith alone. You adhere to it although it contradicts Scripture. Because you really don’t care what Scripture says. You care more about what your Protestants friends and their traditions of men.
Here’s another easy question. Do we reap what we sow?
Job 4:8
Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same.
Hosea 10:12
Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the Lord, till he come and rain righteousness upon you.
Galatians 6:6-8
King James Version (KJV)
6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things. 7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. 9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not. 10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.
Romans 2:7
King James Version (KJV)
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Romans 2:13
King James Version (KJV)
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
James 1:22-25
King James Version (KJV)
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: 24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. 25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
Yes we reap what we sow.
Then faith alone is dead.
How so?
Sow good works.
Reap eternal life.
Galatians 6:8
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
None of the works done in the Spirit makes one saved. What Paul is comparing the implications of living in the flesh i.e. by one’s own power with living in the Spirit will reap an eternal reward. Our works matter and they will be judged in the judgement. (2 Cor 5:10 and I Cor 3:15). This judgement of works is not about salvation but about those things we have done in the body. Either for Christ or for ourselves.
Bob says:
March 11, 2013 at 8:11 pm
None of the works done in the Spirit makes one saved. What Paul is comparing the implications of living in the flesh i.e. by one’s own power with living in the Spirit will reap an eternal reward.
You don’t care at all about mangling Scripture anywhichway, do you? He doesn’t say to reap an “eternal reward”. He says to reap “eternal life”.
That is totally different!
Galatians 6:8
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Our works matter and they will be judged in the judgement. (2 Cor 5:10 and I Cor 3:15). This judgement of works is not about salvation but about those things we have done in the body. Either for Christ or for ourselves.Let’s look at that in detail.
Yeah. Look at it closely. Its about reaping “eternal life”. You can twist and mangle all you want. But I’m looking at the Word of God and it doesn’t say anything about certain eternal rewards. It is talking about salvation. Eternal life. By our works done of the Spirit, we reap ETERNAL LIFE.
It is clear that Scripture does not agree with you, Bob. You adhere to traditions of men which contradict the Word of God in Tradition and Scripture.
How does your church officially interpret Gal 6:8? What do they say “but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.” means?
Can you also give me the reference where you got your church’s interpretation?
Bob says:
March 12, 2013 at 11:02 am
How does your church officially interpret Gal 6:8? What do they say “but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.” means?
Can you also give me the reference where you got your church’s interpretation?
First, you show me the definition of Sola Scriptura from Scripture.
This is not about Sola Scriptura. I’m asking for the official -infallible interpretation by your church. I want to know how they interpret Gal 6:8.
This is not about the official interpretation of the Catholic Church. It is about you twisting the Word of God from “reap life everlasting” to “reap an eternal reward”.
Admit it, you are trying to shift the focus away from the fact that you are twisting Scripture. Here is what you say,
“reap an eternal reward”.
Here is what Scripture says:
New International Version (©2011)
Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
New Living Translation (©2007)
…. But those who live to please the Spirit will harvest everlasting life from the Spirit.
English Standard Version (©2001)
…. but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
….but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
…. but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
….but the one who sows to the Spirit will reap eternal life from the Spirit.
International Standard Version (©2012)
….but the person who sows in the Spirit will harvest eternal life from the Spirit.
NET Bible (©2006)
….but the one who sows to the Spirit will reap eternal life from the Spirit.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
….whoever sows to The Spirit shall reap eternal life from The Spirit.
GOD’S WORD® Translation (©1995)
…. But if you plant in [the soil of] your spiritual nature, you will harvest everlasting life.
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
…. but he that sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
American King James Version
….but he that sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Not one version agrees with your interpretation. Every version agrees with the Catholic Doctrine of faith and works.
You reject the Church.
You reject the Scripture.
You twist the Word of God to your own destruction.
Bottom line, Bob, is you deny the Word of God.
Gal 6:8 says “reap life everlasting.” You have twisted it to say, “reap an eternal reward.”
Scripture does not teach salvation by faith alone.
Philippians 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
But you could care less because you want to justify your tradition of men.
That’s why I want to see the official-infallible interpretation your church has done on Gal 6:8. I want to see how I have “twisted” my understanding of Gal 6:8. The only way I can know that is by see what the infallible interpreter says.
Phil 2:12 has do with sanctification. That is, work out in your life your salvation that Christ has gained for you. It is not about earning salvation.
Bob says:
March 12, 2013 at 3:02 pm
That’s why I want to see the official-infallible interpretation your church has done on Gal 6:8. I want to see how I have “twisted” my understanding of Gal 6:8. The only way I can know that is by see what the infallible interpreter says.
You claim to believe Scripture alone. So you don’t need to see the Catholic Interpretation. You wouldn’t honor it anyway. Suffice to say that the Scripture upholds the Catholic Doctrine.
Whereas, you deny and reject the Scripture. Here is what you say,
“reap an eternal reward”.
Here is what Scripture says:
New International Version (©2011)
Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
New Living Translation (©2007)
…. But those who live to please the Spirit will harvest everlasting life from the Spirit.
English Standard Version (©2001)
…. but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
….but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
…. but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
….but the one who sows to the Spirit will reap eternal life from the Spirit.
International Standard Version (©2012)
….but the person who sows in the Spirit will harvest eternal life from the Spirit.
NET Bible (©2006)
….but the one who sows to the Spirit will reap eternal life from the Spirit.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
….whoever sows to The Spirit shall reap eternal life from The Spirit.
GOD’S WORD® Translation (©1995)
…. But if you plant in [the soil of] your spiritual nature, you will harvest everlasting life.
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
…. but he that sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
American King James Version
….but he that sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Not one version agrees with your interpretation. Every version agrees with the Catholic Doctrine of faith and works.
Phil 2:12 has do with sanctification.
Phil 2:12 says it has to do with salvation. So, again, you are twisting the Scripture. Let’s compare. You say, “sanctification”. The Scripture in question says:
New International Version (©2011)
Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed–not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence–continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,
English Standard Version (©2001)
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
So then, my dear friends, just as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now even more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
International Standard Version (©2012)
And so, my dear friends, just as you have always obeyed, not only when I was with you but even more now that I am absent, continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling.
NET Bible (©2006)
So then, my dear friends, just as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence but even more in my absence, continue working out your salvation with awe and reverence,
GOD’S WORD® Translation (©1995)
My dear friends, you have always obeyed, not only when I was with you but even more now that I’m absent. In the same way continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling.
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
American King James Version
Why, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
American Standard Version
So then, my beloved, even as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
Douay-Rheims Bible
Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.
Darby Bible Translation
So that, my beloved, even as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much rather in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,
English Revised Version
So then, my beloved, even as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
Not one says, work out your “sanctification”.
That is, work out in your life your salvation that Christ has gained for you. It is not about earning salvation.
No one but you has used the word, “earning”.
Here is what the dictionary says:
Definition of WORK OUT
transitive verb
1
a : to bring about by labor and exertion <work out your own salvation — Philippians 2:12 (Authorized Version)
Again, Phl 2:12 is not about gaining or acquiring salvation. Rather it is an outworking of the salvation that has been gained by Christ. We it means we are to put sin out of our lives and pursue Christlikeness.
Just as I thought. There is no official-infallible interpretation of the Scripture by the RCC. You are left to your own private interpretations. Bummer for you.
Bob says:
March 12, 2013 at 4:00 pm
Again, Phl 2:12 is not about gaining or acquiring salvation. Rather it is an outworking of the salvation that has been gained by Christ.
Again, you are twisting Scripture. The verse does not say:
“outworking of the salvation gained by Christ”.
It says:
“work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”
Totally different!
We it means we are to put sin out of our lives and pursue Christlikeness.
In order to be saved. True.
Just as I thought. There is no official-infallible interpretation of the Scripture by the RCC. You are left to your own private interpretations. Bummer for you.
You are still trying to change the focus from the fact that you continually twist Scripture.
You say, “Scripture alone”. But Scripture says, “Traditions by Word and Epistle” (2 Thess 2:15).
You say “faith alone”. But Scripture says, “Not by faith only.” (James 2:24).
You say, “sanctification”. But Scripture says, “salvation” (Phil 2:12).
You say, “outwork the salvation gained by Christ”. But Scripture says “work out your salvation in fear and trembling” (Phi 2:12).
You say, “reap an eternal reward”. But Scripture says, “reap eternal life” (Gal 8:6).
Proving that you care nothing about the Word of God. You care only to promote your traditions of men.
How would you know I am twisting Scripture when you don’t know what the official-infallible interpretation is of this verse? All you are giving me is your private-subjective interpretations.
Bob says:
March 13, 2013 at 10:24 am
How would you know I am twisting Scripture
Easy. I compare your words to Scripture. Scripture contradicts you. Scripture does not agree with you.
when you don’t know what the official-infallible interpretation is of this verse?
But I know the Doctrine and comparing it to Scripture, I see that Scripture agrees with the Catholic Doctrine and disagrees with you.
All you are giving me is your private-subjective interpretations.
I quoted the Scripture. Every version I could get my hands on. And every version agrees with the Catholic Doctrine and disagrees with you. Every one. Not one version agrees with you. Not one.
Quoting Scripture is not the same thing as interpreting it. Quoting without understanding the contexts of the verses is to abuse the Scripture. This is what cults do to support their unbiblical doctrines.
I see De Maria quoting *and* explaining meaning, while I see Bob evading questions and calling names. Which one is cult behavior?
All he is doing is giving me his private interpretations. I want to see how your church officially interprets gal 6:8. Only then I know if his interpretation is in line with Rome. Would you happen to know what the official interpretation is of your church is?
You know its in line with Catholic Teaching. You’re just simply trying to draw attention away from the fact that you are twisting Scripture.
If we’re already guaranteed salvation, why would we be afraid or trembling? Why not live it up, “sin boldly” as Martin Luther said? After all, you’ve already caught our Lord in a legal loophole and called “no backsies” (i.e., Protestant theology in a nutshell). If your interpretation is true, then fear and trembling makes no sense.
Fear and trembling has to do with a healthy respect for God and to be in awe of Him. You should read Romans 6 as to why we should not want to sin.
Bob says:
March 13, 2013 at 3:17 pm
Fear and trembling has to do with a healthy respect for God and to be in awe of Him. You should read Romans 6 as to why we should not want to sin.
That’s the point that joeclark is making Bob, you are not guaranteed salvation if we continue in sin, no matter how many times you say, “I accept Jesus in my heart” or how many times you are baptized.
Just because something is not forbidden does not mean it’s something we should do. The problem with infant baptism is that it fails the requirements for being a follower of Christ. Baptism is meant as a sign of identifying with Christ in His death and resurrection. Only those who have repented and believed in Christ for salvation should be baptised.
Bob says:
March 13, 2013 at 3:11 pm
Just because something is not forbidden does not mean it’s something we should do. The problem with infant baptism is that it fails the requirements for being a follower of Christ. Baptism is meant as a sign of identifying with Christ in His death and resurrection. Only those who have repented and believed in Christ for salvation should be baptised.
They and their children Bob. The promise is to them and their children:
Acts 2:38-40
King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Acts 2:38-40 says nothing about infants being baptized. Keep in mind the condition that must be met is for those who call on the name of the Lord or to whom the Lord calls. The calling is to those who can hear and understand. Infants are incapable of hearing and understanding.
Bob says:
March 13, 2013 at 7:18 pm
Acts 2:38-40 says nothing about infants being baptized. Keep in mind the condition that must be met is for those who call on the name of the Lord or to whom the Lord calls. The calling is to those who can hear and understand. Infants are incapable of hearing and understanding.
Ye of little faith. Christ heals children by the faith of their parents:
Matthew 15:22-28
King James Version (KJV)
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. 23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs. 27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table. 28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
What does Matthew 15:22-28 have to do with baptism? This passage has nothing to do with it.
It is a biblical principal. Jesus accepts people on the faith of the one’s who love them.
Oh and the promise is for us and for our children.
Nonsense. That is not what that passage means.