Leithart-ed Claims

firstthingsPeter Leithart is staying put in a Presbyterian church. He explains why and includes several assertions that warrant analysis, beginning with this bold claim:

Jesus will unite his church. He asked his Father to make his disciples one, and the Father won’t give his Son a stone when he asks for one loaf.

He is of course referring to John 17. But Leithart’s statements imply that the Church is not currently united. All of this later arguments depend upon this assertion.

But the Church is united already. The Church is a unity, because she is Christ’s Mystical Body, and His Body is a unity, not a collection of severed parts. So his first premise is false, and therefore it is not surprising that his later statements are wrong.

He goes on to say:

But the united church won’t look like any of the products presently on the market. God is an entrepreneur who is in the business of creating new markets.

Ah, a consumer metaphor! Very apt for Protestantism and a Protestant understanding of the Church. This line of thinking is similar to that of Alister McGrath, the great Anglican scholar: Christianity is an evolving organism that can mutate to adapt to new circumstances, even if it may then change in substantial ways that render its new manifestations unrecognizably different from older forms that died out.

So all the current Churches and communities are “products on the market.” A new market will be created by God that will somehow be the venue through which the united Church will emerge (or reemerge?).

That brings up an interesting question: has the Church, in Leithart’s opinion, ever been united? He doesn’t say. If the Church has never been united, then one wonders why he thinks it will be pre-Parousia. If the Church was once united, one wonders what event occurred that divided her, and how this change in her essentials doesn’t falsify various promises Christ made in the gospels.

It is easy to claim such things. Anyone can do so all day: the Church is this and is that and God will make a new market and sell new stuff. But what is the basis for thinking that these claims are true? Intuition? It’s certainly not the Scriptures, or sacred Tradition. Leithart is, at the end of the day, just giving us his opinion. An unauthoritative conjecture by a frail human being who “can’t see past the horizon.”

Leithart employs some examples to support his claim that the Church’s new unity won’t be like its old unity (whatever that was; remember he never says):

The Jesus who rose was the same Jesus who was torn on the cross, yet he was so transformed that even his disciples didn’t immediately recognize him.

Yes but even when Jesus was “torn on the cross,” He was still Jesus. He was still a unity. He wasn’t a collection of cut-off body parts. The image he paints here is more aptly applied to the Church, before and after Christ’s return in glory: the Church is wounded by schisms as Christ’s body was wounded on the Cross, but one day the Church, Christ’s Bride, will be transformed in such glory that we will barely recognize her.

The Church has been wounded by schisms and sin, but her essential unity has not been destroyed by them. That is the fundamental difference in understanding between Catholics and Leithart.

Regarding why he is not Catholic or Orthodox, he says:

I continue to have standard, biblically grounded Protestant objections to Purgatory, to Marian doctrines, the Papacy, and icons, as well as lingering puzzlement about ambiguities concerning justification and the role of tradition. 

But this begs the question of course. He claims to  have “biblically grounded” objections, but really that just means that his own opinion about what the Bible says contradicts Catholic and Orthodox doctrine. In other words, he is a Protestant, which means his ultimate interpretive authority is himself. No surprise there.

Out of the blue comes another wild opinion:

Though both are crucial to the future of Christianity, neither Roman Catholicism nor Orthodoxy is the Church of the future.

Huh? How does he know? Crystal ball? Private revelation? Since his first premise is faulty, this later premise has no legs to stand on. Really it should say, “If Protestantism is true, then neither Roman Catholicism nor Orthodoxy is the Church of the future.” But Protestantism is not true, and so the statement is false.

I find it interesting to even talk about the Church “of the future,” as if she is disconnected from the Church of the past and the present. The Church of the future is the Church of the past and present. She is the Church that Christ founded and remains with. Christ didn’t plan various do-overs for His Church; He doesn’t need mulligans. He got it right the first time.

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64 Responses to Leithart-ed Claims

  1. Jesus’ Church are the ones that Jesus knows.

    And those are found in all manner of churches that proclaim His gospel for the forgiveness of sins (in some manner).

    There are believers, and non-believers in the pews of every church.

    “The wheat and tares grow together. Don’t mess around with trying to figure out which is which.”

    He will handle that job quite nicely.

    • Indeed there are “wheat” and “tares” in every Christian community, but some of those communities are Churches in the proper sense, that is, governed by a bishop in apostolic succession, and some are not. The reality of sin at no point relieves us from the responsibility to be members of the one Church that Christ founded, nor does it free us to believe false doctrines about God, simply because the alleged holders of true doctrine are unworthy witnesses, or at least appear to be. This I suspect you know, and I hope you find your way. For my part, I could not remain in any Protestant community, given the fact that no mechanism exists in any of them to distinguish dogma from human opinion. Given also that such communities hold together on the inertia of (fragile) agreement, and an ad hoc reliance on the doctrinal definitions of the Catholic Church, the Christian’s duty became clear. Sorry; that was a book, or at least a chapter.

      • We believe that the Word (Jesus Himself) in preaching (that’s where faith is created), in the absolution, in the Supper and Baptism…is authority enough.

        • De Maria says:

          Hi Steve,

          So do we. This is why we believe Him when He appointed Peter as head of His Church and appointed the Church to Teach His Word.

          We obey the Church because we believe in Christ.
          We obey the Priests because we believe in Christ.

          Matthew 28:19-20
          King James Version (KJV)
          19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

          Sincerely,

          De Maria

    • De Maria says:

      Steve Martin says:
      May 23, 2014 at 2:56 pm
      Jesus’ Church are the ones that Jesus knows. And those are found in all manner of churches that proclaim His gospel for the forgiveness of sins (in some manner). There are believers, and non-believers in the pews of every church. “The wheat and tares grow together. Don’t mess around with trying to figure out which is which.”

      He will handle that job quite nicely.

      Agreed. Do you realize what that does to the idea of “absolute assurance of salvation”?

      It is Catholic Doctrine that we do no judge ourselves “saved” by faith alone or any other means. Because Christ is our Judge. He will figure out who is wheat and who is tare, who shall be saved and who will be thrown into the fire.

      Sincerely,

      De Maria

  2. Randy says:

    I can see how a guy like Leithart finds the notion of just becoming a Catholic boring. The church of the future being something totally new and cool appeals to churchmen. They want to fix the church. If God tells them, “My church. Don’t fix it. Just join it.” then they don’t see anything for them to do. This is especially true if they are married and unlikely to be ordained a priest if they did convert. He would have to completely rethink his identity as a major mover and shaker.

    Often these fears are misplaced. God does find a place for us in His body. He does not let our gifts waste away. It is just hard to see. For me, it was 100 times easier to convert because I am a layman. So I will pray for him and try and avoid judging.

  3. Bob says:

    The RCC is disconnected from the church Jesus founded because she teaches doctrines they never taught and in fact deny what they taught.

    • De Maria says:

      Bob,

      Its the other way around. It is Protestants who teach non-biblical doctrines. The Catholic Church still teaches the Gospel of Jesus Christ. By word and by epistle. It is the Catholic Church which wrote the New Testament based upon the Traditions which Jesus Christ established.

      Sincerely,

      De Maria

      • The Catholic Church teaches a law tinged gospel which is not pure.

        In reality (although is says it is not), the Catholic Church is semi-Pelagian.

        ‘A lot of God…and a little bit of you.’

        And if that’s the case, then why would Jesus even bother with the Cross? He could just as easily line us all up and judge us on how well we are doing.

        This from a lifelong Catholic who finally heard the gospel preached in it’s purity. Without the add-on’s on self, or clergy having to be attached to it.

        • De Maria says:

          Steve Martin says:
          May 26, 2014 at 12:59 pm
          The Catholic Church teaches a law tinged gospel which is not pure.

          Let’s compare your words to Scripture:

          Romans 2:13
          King James Version (KJV)
          13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

          Romans 8:7
          King James Version (KJV)
          7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

          In reality (although is says it is not), the Catholic Church is semi-Pelagian.

          ‘A lot of God…and a little bit of you.’

          Wrong. Pelagian means that you believe that you can save yourself without God. That is parallel with the Protestant idea that you can save yourself by your faith alone.

          Semi-Pelagian says that people have the capacity to turn to God without God’s initiative. Without the prevenient grace of God.

          The Catholic Church teaches that only God justifies. And we only turn to God when God gives us the prevenient grace of faith to believe in Him and to believe in His goodness and to diligently seek Him. And that this requires us to obey His call in order to be saved:
          Romans 6:16
          Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

          Hebrews 5:9
          And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

          And if that’s the case, then why would Jesus even bother with the Cross?

          In order to pour out His grace upon us in the Sacraments.

          He could just as easily line us all up and judge us on how well we are doing.

          That happens to all who submit to the Sacraments. The Sacraments are prejudgement events. When we approach the Sacraments, God looks in our souls as He did at Abraham and says, “He believes, therefore he is righteous”.

          But God only does this for those who keep His Law:
          Romans 2:13
          King James Version (KJV)
          13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

          Those who refuse to keep God’s law blaspheme if they approach the fountains of grace and are condemned:
          Mark 16:16
          King James Version (KJV)
          16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

          But EVERYONE will stand before the judgment seat of Christ on the last day. EVERYONE:
          Romans 14:10
          But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

          2 Corinthians 5:10
          For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

          This from a lifelong Catholic who finally heard the gospel preached in it’s purity. Without the add-on’s on self, or clergy having to be attached to it.

          It is the Protestants who have added to and taken from the Word of God and changed the Gospel of Jesus Christ in their own image.

          Sincerely,

          De Maria

      • Bob says:

        De Maria ,
        Where did Jesus or His apostles teach about the “Marian doctrines, the Papacy, and icons”?

        • De Maria says:

          Jesus Christ taught about the Marian Doctrines in His Traditions which compose the Deposit of Faith upon which the New Testament is based.

          Therefore, Scripture …

          …St. Peter is the Pope or Vicar of Christ:
          Matthew 16:18-19
          King James Version (KJV)
          18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

          19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

          …tells us that Mary is the Mother of God
          Luke 1:43
          King James Version (KJV)
          43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

          …commands us to bless Mary:

          Luke 1:48
          King James Version (KJV)
          48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

          …that Mary is Queen of Heaven
          Revelation 12:1
          King James Version (KJV)
          1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

          … and that Christ is the image (i.e. icon) of God:
          John 14:9
          Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

          2 Corinthians 4:4
          In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

          Therefore, since we have seen God, we can depict God in icons. But if you are not Christian, if you do not believe that Jesus is God, you have not seen God.

          Sincerely,

          De Maria

          • Bob says:

            De Maria,
            None of those passages say anything about the
            ““Marian doctrines, the Papacy, and icons”.
            What this means is that Jesus nor His apostles ever taught about those things. It is the teachings of men.

            • Joseph Wingate says:

              So Bob, according to you who was the first appointed leader of Christ’s church? Who assembled the bible into the assortment of books that stands today? What was Jesus referring to when he said “Behold your Mother”? Please answer these questions, I have a lot more for you, about 2000 years worth regarding faith and understanding.

              • Bob says:

                Joseph,
                1-the apostles were the leaders of the church whom Christ appointed. Peter never claims to be the supreme leader of the church nor do any of the other apostles. In Gal 2:9 Paul refers to James, Cephas and John to be pillars of the church.

                2- the church of the 4th century put the NT canon together. The OT was put together by the OT Jews who preceded the church.

                3- Jesus told John to take care of His mother. He never said that Mary was the mother of the church nor do any of the apostles say such a thing.

            • Joseph Wingate says:

              Hi Bob, wow the 4th century church? Who was that exactly? Since the original apostles were dead who could rightfully declare this?

              I think it would have been presumed that someone would be taking care of Mary, I don’t think Jesus would have declared this without specific meaning?

              Also, was it not until the 4th century that the doctrine of the Trinity was formulated/finished? I mean to declare the following:
              ” “God is one in essence (His nature) but three persons” who are distinct but act in complete harmony. There is no strife or ‘competition’ between them of any kind.”

              Is that specifically spelled out in the bible? I mean how would I know that the Holy Spirit was God?

              Seems like a lot of things were expanded upon a long time after the original apostles were gone. I am still hung up on “On this rock I will build my Church..”, seems self explanatory who Jesus was talking about.

              Thanks and have a great day!

              • Bob says:

                Joseph,
                Are you aware how the books of the NT were determined by the church of the 4th century?

                If Jesus meant something more in entrusting the care of His mother to John then why didn’t He or His apostles mention it? There is nothing about this after the resurrection in His conversations with the apostles nor do the apostles in their writings make any mention of it.

                The doctrine of the Trinity was declared a doctrine based on Scripture by the church. We know the Holy Spirit is God by a number of passages such as John 16:13 and Acts 5:3-4.

                If Peter the man is the rock that Christ is building on then the church is not built on something solid. Men are fallen and frail and prone to sin. We see an example of this in Galatians where Paul rebukes Peter for not being true to the gospel.

                Have a nice day

              • Joseph Wingate says:

                Bob,

                Did you come to the understanding about the trinity all by reading the bible?

                I mean clearly the bible shows we all need to be instructed:

                26
                Then the angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, “Get up and head south on the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza, the desert route.”
                27
                So he got up and set out. Now there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of the Candace,* that is, the queen of the Ethiopians, in charge of her entire treasury, who had come to Jerusalem to worship,h
                28
                and was returning home. Seated in his chariot, he was reading the prophet Isaiah.
                29
                The Spirit said to Philip, “Go and join up with that chariot.”
                30
                * Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?”
                31
                He replied, “How can I, unless someone instructs me?” So he invited Philip to get in and sit with him.

                Bob, I am still trying to figure out what church you’re referring to in the 4th century and by what authority they chose the books of the bible?

                Thanks

              • De Maria says:

                Bob says:
                May 27, 2014 at 10:35 am
                Joseph,
                Are you aware how the books of the NT were determined by the church of the 4th century?

                Yes. Pope Damasus I gave St. Jerome the assignment to produce the official Bible of the Catholic Church, the Latin Vulgate.

                If Jesus meant something more in entrusting the care of His mother to John then why didn’t He or His apostles mention it?

                Again, they did, but you can’t understand the spiritual underpinnings of Scripture:

                Revelation 12:17
                King James Version (KJV)
                17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

                The Woman is Mary and those who keep the Gospel and the Commandments of God are her children.

                There is nothing about this after the resurrection in His conversations with the apostles nor do the apostles in their writings make any mention of it.

                It is in Scripture. Here is a spiritual explanation of Luke 1.

                Here is a prayer you might want to pray in order that God might grant you spiritual understanding of His great regard for Mary, the Mother of God.

                The doctrine of the Trinity was declared a doctrine based on Scripture by the church.

                Based on Scripture and Sacred Tradition. In fact, you won’t even find the word, “Trinity” in Scripture. If that is not true, then please show the explicit teaching of the Blessed Trinity from Scripture.

                We know the Holy Spirit is God by a number of passages such as John 16:13 and Acts 5:3-4.

                Show me the one that explicitly says that the Holy Spirit is God.

                If Peter the man is the rock that Christ is building on then the church is not built on something solid.

                According to Jesus Christ, St. Peter is the Rock upon which He built the Church and it is solid enough that the Church will never fall:

                Matthew 16:18-19
                King James Version (KJV)
                18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

                19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

                Is Jesus word not good enough for you?

                Men are fallen and frail and prone to sin.

                That is Catholic Teaching. It is called the Doctrine of Original Sin.

                We see an example of this in Galatians where Paul rebukes Peter for not being true to the gospel.

                Yes, I agree. St. Paul shows that he is fallen and frail by rebuking, not just the Rock appointed by Jesus Christ. But the three most solid Apostles, Peter, James and John. The Apostles upon which Jesus Christ relied the most. That is why He took them up the mountain (Matt 17:1).

                St. Paul here showed the weakness to which he was prone and which he wrote about in another verse:

                Romans 7:19
                King James Version (KJV)
                19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

                Thank God that He did not antagonize the Prince of the Apostles more or he might have gone the way of Ananias:

                Acts 5:
                3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
                4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. 5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things. 6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.

                St. Paul achieved the heights of sanctity. But not without struggling with his own sinfulness and pride. That is why he is highlighted in Scripture. In order to show a man’s journey of faith. A man’s conversion and justification.

                Have a nice day

                You too,

                Sincerely,

                De Maria

              • Joseph Wingate says:

                Bob,

                I have to ask what exactly is your problem with Mary? I mean I see people attacking the RC for merely showing her honor and respect asking for her intercession. I would not want to be the one standing before Jesus being asked this question.

                “Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.”

                And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

                “The holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God”

                “Behold your Mother!”

            • De Maria says:

              Bob says:
              May 27, 2014 at 12:16 am
              De Maria,
              None of those passages say anything about the
              ““Marian doctrines, the Papacy, and icons”.

              They do if you read them with spiritual understanding. The Scriptures advise you to read its contents according to the Spirit which inspired them:

              1 Corinthians 2:14
              But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

              This spiritual discernment is something which Protestants have discarded.

              What this means is that Jesus nor His apostles ever taught about those things.

              Yes, they did Bob. But you simply don’t see it because you read the Scriptures according to the traditions of men which you have been taught by the Protestants.

              It is the teachings of men.

              Protestant doctrine is the teaching of men. The Catholic Church teaches the wisdom of God:
              Ephesians 3:10
              King James Version (KJV)
              10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

              Sincerely,

              De Maria

  4. Bob says:

    Joseph,
    All Christians are to have the word of Christ richly dwelling in them. Col 3:16. Christ gave the church pastor-teachers who are to study and teach the Scripture. These 2 things taken together will help a person to know if the Trinity is taught in Scripture. I can go check myself to see if the doctrine of the Trinity is firmly grounded in the Scripture or not. In this case it is. When we look to see if the Marian dogmas are for example we find they are not.

    The church of the 4th century that determined the canon was composed of leaders from Rome and other churches.

    • De Maria says:

      Joseph,
      All Christians are to have the word of Christ richly dwelling in them. Col 3:16. Christ gave the church pastor-teachers who are to study and teach the Scripture. These 2 things taken together will help a person to know if the Trinity is taught in Scripture. I can go check myself to see if the doctrine of the Trinity is firmly grounded in the Scripture or not.

      No one disputes that the Doctrine of the Trinity is “firmly” grounded in Scripture. However, it is not “explicitly taught” in Scripture. It is explicitly taught in Catholic Doctrine. It is the Catholic Church which taught the world about the Doctrine of the Trinity.

      The Doctrine of Purgatory is firmly grounded in Scripture. But you claim it is not because you don’t see the word, “purgatory”.

      Prayer to Mary is firmly grounded in Scripture, but you claim it is not because you don’t see the words, “pray to Mary.”

      It is the Catholic Church which teaches these Doctrines based upon Scripture. It is the Catholic Church which produced the Scriptures which teach these Doctrines, implied and explicit.

      In this case it is. When we look to see if the Marian dogmas are for example we find they are not.

      You don’t find them because you discarded the Traditions which are the basis of the Scripture. You are reinventing Christianity 2000 years after Christ established the Church and the Doctrines which He commanded the Church to pass down.

      The church of the 4th century that determined the canon was composed of leaders from Rome and other churches.

      The Church of the 4th century is the same Catholic Church which exists to this day. Protestants were not there and had nothing to do with the selection of the Canon of Scripture.

      Sincerely,

      De Maria

      • Bob says:

        De Maria,
        The doctrine of the Trinity is explicit in Scripture. The Father is God (many references in the OT and NT), Jesus is God incarnate (John 1:1-3) and the Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4). Put this all together with an understanding that God is one and you have the Trinity.

        The problem with the RCC is that in many cases it creates its doctrines without first exegeting the Scripture. We see this in the Marian dogmas for example.

        There is not one prayer to Mary in Scripture, not one example of anyone praying to her.

        The church of the 4th century did not believe many of the things you believe today.

        In regards to Traditions your church has never produced an official list of these traditions or where they came from and when.

        • De Maria says:

          Bob says:
          May 27, 2014 at 8:52 pm
          De Maria,
          The doctrine of the Trinity is explicit in Scripture.

          No it isn’t. Obviously, you don’t know the meaning of the word, explicit.

          ex·plic·it
          ik?splisit
          adjective
          1.
          stated clearly and in detail, leaving no room for confusion or doubt.

          The word “trinity” is not even found in Scripture. Therefore, the Doctrine of the Trinity is not explicitly found in Scripture.

          The Father is God (many references in the OT and NT),

          True.

          Jesus is God incarnate (John 1:1-3)

          True.

          and the Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4).

          Not even once. Nowhere in Scripture does it say that the Holy Spirit is God.

          Put this all together with an understanding that God is one and you have the Trinity.

          If it were explicit, you wouldn’t need to put it together. It would already be put together for you.

          For instance, this statement explicitly states that God is one.

          Deuteronomy 6:4
          Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:

          Nowhere does Scripture say that God is three or that God is Trinity. The Catholic Church first taught that concept by word and then by Scripture.

          The problem with the RCC is that in many cases it creates its doctrines without first exegeting the Scripture.

          The Catholic Church wrote the Scripture based upon the Teachings of Jesus Christ. The Teachings or Traditions of Jesus Christ came first.

          We see this in the Marian dogmas for example.

          Because the Marian Dogmas came before the New Testament. The New Testament was written on the basis of Jesus’ Teachings.

          There is not one prayer to Mary in Scripture, not one example of anyone praying to her.

          Yes, there is.

          Praise is a form of prayer and the Angel Gabriel and St. Elizabeth both praised Mary. And both were doing it at God’s command.

          Jesus Christ Himself, as her child, had to ask Mary for His sustenance and care. But I don’t think you care very much about the meaning of the words that you use.

          pray verb \?pr?\
          : to speak to God especially in order to give thanks or to ask for something

          : to hope or wish very much for something to happen

          : to seriously ask (someone) to do something

          The church of the 4th century did not believe many of the things you believe today.

          The Church of the 4th century did not believe many of the things you believe. But they believed all which the Catholic Church teaches today. It is one and the same Church.

          In regards to Traditions your church has never produced an official list of these traditions or where they came from and when.

          You first. Your tradition has never produced an official list of all they believe either. When your tradition writes down everything they believe, the Catholic Church will do the same.

          In the meantime, you’ll have to be satisfied with the New Testament, which is the very first Catechism of the Catholic Church. With the Bible, which is the very first Compendium of the Catholic Church. And with the Nicene Creed. As well as the Councils.

          We have reams and reams of Teachings concerning our Doctrines. Your tradition has reams and reams of contradicting teachings with regards to yours.

          It would be ridiculous for Protestants to attempt to write down all their traditions, because they always invent new ones.

          It would be just as ridiculous for Catholics to attempt to write down all their Traditions, because the Holy Spirit continues to lead us into an ever deeper understanding of the Traditions of Jesus Christ. The Tradition of the Trinity, being a prime example.

          Sincerely,

          De Maria

  5. Bob says:

    Joseph,
    None of your quotes have anything to do with Mary being your mother or the mother of church or of mankind.

    I have no problem with Mary but I do have a problem with how the RCC has twisted her into something that the Scriptures never support.

    • De Maria says:

      Bob says:
      May 27, 2014 at 8:58 pm
      Joseph,
      None of your quotes have anything to do with Mary being your mother or the mother of church or of mankind.

      Yes, they do Bob. But you lack the spiritual discernment necessary to understand the Teachings of Scripture:
      1 Corinthians 2:14
      But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

      Let me give you an example:
      John 19:26-27
      King James Version (KJV)
      26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother,

      Mary is His mother. Or do you deny it?

      and the disciple standing by, whom he loved,

      Jesus loves all His disciples. Do you deny it? Therefore, this is a reference to all of us who love Jesus.

      he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!

      Therefore, Jesus gave to Mary all of His disciples to be her children.

      27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother!

      And Jesus gave to His disciples, His mother as their own.

      And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

      And those disciples who love Jesus, love also Mary, His mother and take her into their hearts and homes.

      This is confirmed in Rev 12:17
      Revelation 12:17
      King James Version (KJV)
      17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

      All who have the Gospel of Jesus Christ are her seed. Her children.

      Mary is the New Eve. Therefore she is the mother of all who live in Christ.
      Genesis 3:20
      And Adam called his wife’s name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

      But you can’t understand that. You are spiritually blinded because you reject the Traditions of Jesus Christ and because you reject His Church. You believe error therefore you reject the Truth.

      I have no problem with Mary

      Yeah, you do.

      but I do have a problem with how the RCC has twisted her into something that the Scriptures never support.

      You have a problem understanding the true meaning of Scripture. You have embraced the errors of the Protestants. This is why you can’t understand the Word of God.

      Sincerely,

      De Maria

      • Bob says:

        De Maria,
        Who in the NT does anyone call or refer to Mary as Eve?

        Where does the NT call Mary the mother of the church or mankind?

        • De Maria says:

          Bob says:
          May 28, 2014 at 10:38 am
          De Maria,
          Who in the NT does anyone call or refer to Mary as Eve?

          Justin Martyr
          [Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that the course that was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied, “Be it done unto me according to your word” (Luke 1:38) (Dialogue with Trypho 100 [A.D. 155]).

          Irenaeus
          Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying, “Behold, 0 Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word.” Eve . . . who was then still a virgin although she had Adam for a husband — for in paradise they were both naked but were not ashamed; for, having been created only a short time, they had no understanding of the procreation of children . . . having become disobedient [sin], was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient [no sin], was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. . . . Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith (Against Heresies 3:22:24 [A.D. 189]).

          Note that it is firmly grounded in Scripture, but needs spiritual discernment in order to understand. That is why Protestants don’t get it. They lack both a firm grounding in Scripture and spiritual discernment.

          Where does the NT call Mary the mother of the church or mankind?

          When Scripture calls her the Mother of Jesus Christ. The Church is the Body of Christ. Therefore, Mary is the Mother of the Church.

          Eve is the mother of mankind. Mary is the Mother of all who believe in Christ and keep the Comandments (Rev 12:17). In other words, she is the mother of the living.

          Sincerely,

          De Maria

    • Joseph Wingate says:

      Hi Bob,

      You can believe what you want, I have no problem that the RCC has put special significance on the Mother of God. I believe that Jesus was talking to all of us about His mother when he said “Behold your Mother”. She said yes to something very special that undid the sin of Adam and Eve, if we do not recognize that we are missing something very special indeed.

      As far as the papacy, we see all this division today and splinters of churches happening every day, it is sad. The RCC is the only one that stands for truth since the time of Christ. There is nothing that the RCC has taught that isn’t good for us and our soul. Divorce, abortion, contraception and immorality are taught in all these churches today as ok, the RCC is the only one that hasn’t changed or caved to human pressure. Think and pray about it.

  6. Bob says:

    Joseph,
    The RCC beliefs about Mary are not grounded in Scripture and they are non-biblical teachings that deny what the Scriptures do teach. The teachings of your church lead to the worship of Mary. Just read the Glories of Mary or some of the devotional material about her that clearly demonstrates this.

    If the RCC “is the only one that stands for truth since the time of Christ” then what am I to make of the inquisitions that resulted in the murder of many, the evil popes and the current priest scandals?

    • De Maria says:

      Bob says:
      May 28, 2014 at 10:00 am
      Joseph,
      The RCC beliefs about Mary are not grounded in Scripture and they are non-biblical teachings that deny what the Scriptures do teach.

      It is you who deny the Teaching of Scripture when you deny the Teachings of the Catholic Church.

      The teachings of your church lead to the worship of Mary. Just read the Glories of Mary or some of the devotional material about her that clearly demonstrates this.

      <a href="http://washedsanctifiedandjustified.blogspot.com/2013/10/st-alphonsus-marie-de-liguori-glories.html"The Glories of Mary is one of my favorite books. It is one of the major reasons I took the pen name “De Maria”. Because of St. Liguori’s influence.

      If the RCC “is the only one that stands for truth since the time of Christ” then what am I to make of the inquisitions that resulted in the murder of many, the evil popes and the current priest scandals?

      Here’s the difference between Catholics who sin and Protestants who sin.

      A Catholic who commits sin does it AGAINST the clear Teaching of the Church.

      Whereas, a Protestant who commits sin, does it with the full cooperation and assistance of their community. Let me give you an example:

      Protestants, beginning with King Henry VIII, advocate divorce and remarriage. What does Scripture say on this matter:
      Matthew 5:32
      But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

      Luther promoted adultery simply if a wife refused to have sex with her husband:
      The third case for divorce is that in which one of the parties deprives and avoids the other, refusing to fulfill the conjugal duty or to live with the other person. For example, one finds many a stubborn wife like that who will not give in, and who cares not a whit whether her husband falls into the sin of unchastity ten times over. Here it is time for the husband to say, “If you will not, another will; the maid will come if the wife will not.” Only first the husband should admonish and warn his wife two or three times, and let the situation be known to others so that her stubbornness becomes a matter of common knowledge and is rebuked before the congregation. If she still refuses, get rid of her; take an Esther and let Vashti go, as King Ahasuerus did [Esther 1:12?2:17].

      These are the traditions which you follow. And many of your communities approve and agree with homosexuality, abortion, contraception, masturbation and many other abominations.

      Sincerely,

      De Maria

  7. Joseph Wingate says:

    Hi Bob,

    How do they deny what the scriptures teach? You are free to interpret them anyway you wish, I on the other hand have no problem what the RCC teaches.

    Inquisitions now Bob? Really? Are we going here? There is guilt of every side and the one thing that everyone including yourself have in common is sin.

    You know history shows us a lot of about ourselves, none of us wants to truly and fully submit to God. If your honest with yourself you will agree with this.

  8. Bob says:

    Joseph ,
    I brought up some of the evils of your church to dispel the notion that your church has always taught the truth.
    True, all men are fallen. The church is not free from sin nor is it protected from error.

    To claim that Mary was without sin is a denial of Romans 3:9, 23 and 5:12.

    • De Maria says:

      Bob says:
      May 28, 2014 at 10:52 am
      Joseph ,
      I brought up some of the evils of your church

      They are not evil of our church. They are sins of men who acted against the clear Teaching of the Catholic Church.

      to dispel the notion that your church has always taught the truth.

      Our Church has always taught the Truth of Jesus Christ. Our Church disagrees with sin, whereas your agrees with all manner of sins.

      Our Church teaches truth and goodness in the name of Jesus Christ.

      True, all men are fallen. The church is not free from sin nor is it protected from error.

      Non sequitur. The fact that men are fallen is the reason why Jesus Christ protects His Church from error. It is why He established a Church which is the Pillar of Truth (1 Tim 3:15) and the Teacher of the Wisdom of God (Eph 3:10).

      To claim that Mary was without sin is a denial of Romans 3:9, 23 and 5:12.

      Romans 5:14
      King James Version (KJV)
      14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

      The problem with Protestants like yourself is that you know only enough of the Scriptures to use them to justify your desires. Scripture recognizes that many people have died without committing any sins. Children who die in the womb, children who die before they are able to sin, and many Saints, chief amongst them, Mary, the mother of our Lord.

  9. Joseph Wingate says:

    Hi Bob,

    I follow Jesus Christ and the Church he established, not men. Just as Judas betrayed Jesus we have plenty of Judas running around the Church. It comes down to doctrines and teaching. Again I don’t follow men, I follow truth and Jesus established a Church that the gates of hell will not prevail against. If you don’t want the fullness of truth I am sure there is a church out there that will conform to your view. Which one do you go to Baptist, Methodist? Is divorce, abortion, contraception ok there?

    How exactly can someone filled with grace be not made perfectly?

    Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. LK 1 28

    Thanks for the interesting discussion Bob.

  10. Bob says:

    Joseph,
    “Full of grace” is not a good translation. “Hail favored one” is better. “Hail favored one” or “full of grace” does not mean sinless. Here is what a Greek lexicon of the NT says about this phrase: “??????? charitó?; contracted charitó?, fut. charitó?s?, from cháris (5485), grace. To grace, highly honor or greatly favor. In the NT spoken only of the divine favor, as to the virgin Mary in Luke 1:28, kecharit?mén?, the perf. pass. part. sing. fem. The verb charitó? declares the virgin Mary to be highly favored, approved of God to conceive the Son of God through the Holy Spirit. The only other use of charitó? is in Eph. 1:6 where believers are said to be “accepted in the beloved,” i.e., objects of grace.
    Zodhiates, S. (2000, c1992, c1993). The complete word study dictionary : New Testament (electronic ed.) (G5486). Chattanooga, TN: AMG Publishers

    Divorce, abortion are wrong. Depends what kind of contraception you are referring to. Some are wrong some are not. If you claim that all contraception is wrong then where in Scripture say this?

    • Joseph Wingate says:

      “approved of God to conceive the Son of God ” Yes I agree Bob highly favored. The Mother of God absolutely in your mind could not be sinless? How exactly do you declare this? Are you a prophet?

      What you need to stop doing is putting God in a box. No where in the bible does it claim that its the end all in faith and reason. Sola scripture is un-biblical. Please cite a reference of your claim.

      Instead of attacking the Catholic Church how about fighting against the immorality all around us like divorce, abortion, ss marriage? We need to find things we agree on and stop attacking the Mother of God for all the problems in this world. Its really sad that people do these things and claim they know all what the bible says. Again this is Jesus mother the one we should all try to emulate in our daily lives by saying yes…”Behold your Mother”!

      • De Maria says:

        Joseph,
        “Full of grace” is not a good translation. “Hail favored one” is better…..

        Says who? You? We believe the Catholics who first interpreted this verse. St. Jerome and company.

        This has been the enduring Tradition from the Early Church:

        Gregory Thaumaturgus (205-270 AD):

        O purest one
        O purest virgin
        where the Holy Spirit is, there are all things readily ordered.
        Where divine grace is present
        the soil that, all untilled, bears bounteous fruit
        in the life of the flesh, was in possession of the incorruptible citizenship,
        and walked as such in all manner of virtues, and lived a life more excellent than man’s common standard
        thou hast put on the vesture of purity
        has selected thee as the holy one and the wholly fair;
        and through thy holy, and chaste, and pure, and undefiled womb
        since of all the race of man thou art by birth the holy one,
        and the more honourable, and the purer, and the more pious than any other:
        and thou hast a mind whiter than the snow, and a body made purer than any gold

        You interpret the Bible blindly, as do those who embrace extra-marital sin and all those other sins which Protestants have approved.

        • De Maria says:

          My mistake, St. Jerome wasn’t the first. He was carrying on the Sacred Traditions of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ was the first.

      • Bob says:

        Joseph,
        Nowhere does the NT claim that Mary was sinless. It does say all have sinned (Romans 3:9, 23, 5:12). She also acknowledges God as her Savior (Luke 1:47). Keep in mind that all that we know of Mary is found only in the NT.

        Even if you don’t believe in Sola Scriptura that would not change the fact that Mary was a sinner like all of us.

        Where in Scripture does it say of Mary -“”Behold your Mother”?

        Doctrine matters because from it we guide our lives. This is why the apostles were so strong against false teachers and doctrines. They were intolerant of it because they knew it would lead to sin and damnation.

        • Joseph Wingate says:

          Hi Bob, has a baby sinned?

          We all need a savior including Mary, that doesn’t mean she was not given the grace of being sinless.

          “After that, he saith to the disciple: Behold thy mother. ”

          With God all things are possible. Are they not? But you seem to think that you know all ? Do you claim infallibility in your translation and understanding of scripture, faith and reason?

          All of the original Churches, Catholic, Eastern venerate the ever-virgin Mary. Do you have a problem with ever-virgin as well? Since its not in scripture.

        • Joseph Wingate says:

          How does honoring Mary lead to sin and damnation? The Mother of God points the way to her son? You’ve got me there.. perplexed..

          • Bob says:

            RC’s don’t just honor Mary but worship her. Just read the Glories of Mary as an example of it.
            Do you know that your church says all grace comes through her? It is a sin to teach this kind of thing because it deceives RC’s.

            • Joseph Wingate says:

              Please cite your reference to the charge of worship of Mary. I have yet seen or heard such a thing other then from people such as yourself that attack the church.

              • Bob says:

                Here are some quotes from the Glories of Mary which has the full support of the RCC:
                “At the command of Mary all obey, even God. 38
                She is omnipotent, for the queen, according to all laws, enjoys the same privileges as the king; and since the son’s power also belongs to the mother, this Mother is made omnipotent by an omnipotent Son. 39
                Therefore, to use the words of St. Antonine, God has put the whole Church not only under the patronage, but even under the power and authority, of Mary.
                Since, then, the Mother must have the same power as the Son, Mary became omnipotent because Jesus is omnipotent. Of course, the Son is omnipotent by nature, where Mary is omnipotent only by grace. This is proved by the fact that the Son never refuses the Mother anything she seeks, as St. Bridget learned in a revelation.
                One day this Saint heard Jesus saying to Mary: ” Ask Me for anything; your request can never be in vain.” And this is the beautiful reason He gave: “Because you never refused Me anything on earth, I will refuse you nothing in Heaven.”

                Excerpts From
                The Glories of Mary
                St. Alphonsus de Liguori At the command of Mary all obey, even God.
                Redemptorist Fathers, 1931
                with Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur

              • Joseph Wingate says:

                Hi Bob,

                Not seeing anything about worshiping Mary in there or equating Mary as God, yes asking for intercession.

                Why would graces not flow from the Mother of God?

                Was St Augustine wrong about Mary?

                Do you attack Mormons, Muslims, JWs about their unbiblical faith? Are you a former Catholic or were you told Catholics are going to hell all your life? Trying to figure out why you hate the church Christ established.

              • De Maria says:

                Bob says:
                May 29, 2014 at 1:45 pm
                Here are some quotes from the Glories of Mary which has the full support of the RCC:

                I recommend the book highly for all Catholics that they might get a fuller and more spiritual understanding of Mary’s part in salvation.

                “At the command of Mary all obey, even God. 38

                Only those who deny the Divinity of Christ would balk at this statement. It is confirmed in Scripture.

                Luke:51 And he (Jesus) went down with them , and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them (Mary and Joseph): but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart.

                She is omnipotent, for the queen, according to all laws, enjoys the same privileges as the king; and since the son’s power also belongs to the mother, this Mother is made omnipotent by an omnipotent Son. 39

                Is it true that the mother of a King is a Queen? If so, then it is true that Mary is the Queen of Heaven because her son is the King of Heaven.

                Note that her Queenship depends upon His Kingship. In the same way, her power depends upon His.

                Therefore, to use the words of St. Antonine, God has put the whole Church not only under the patronage, but even under the power and authority, of Mary.
                Since, then, the Mother must have the same power as the Son, Mary became omnipotent because Jesus is omnipotent. Of course, the Son is omnipotent by nature, where Mary is omnipotent only by grace. This is proved by the fact that the Son never refuses the Mother anything she seeks, as St. Bridget learned in a revelation.
                One day this Saint heard Jesus saying to Mary: ” Ask Me for anything; your request can never be in vain.” And this is the beautiful reason He gave: “Because you never refused Me anything on earth, I will refuse you nothing in Heaven.”

                That is the love of a Son for His Mother.

                Excerpts From
                The Glories of Mary
                St. Alphonsus de Liguori At the command of Mary all obey, even God.
                Redemptorist Fathers, 1931
                with Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur

                Amen! Thanks be to God who humbled Himself and took flesh in a humble maiden’s womb.

                Sincerely,

                De Maria

        • De Maria says:

          Bob says:
          May 29, 2014 at 9:42 am
          Joseph,….

          Those questions have been answered in these exchanges. Your asking these questions again is proof that you aren’t reading what we say. All you have to do is read the responses we have provided and you will find the answers to those questions.

          Doctrine matters because from it we guide our lives.

          Absolutely! Look at the doctrines which you follow and compare them to Scripture.

          You deny the Real Presence:
          John 6:51
          I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

          You deny Sacred Tradition:
          2 Thessalonians 2:15
          King James Version (KJV)
          15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

          You deny the authority of the Church:
          Hebrews 13:17
          King James Version (KJV)
          17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

          Therefore, you interpret the Scriptures anyway that you want and come to conclusions which are anti-Christian.

          This is why the apostles were so strong against false teachers and doctrines.

          Yes. They were against false teachers like you. And false doctrines like yours.

          They were intolerant of it because they knew it would lead to sin and damnation.

          Exactly!

  11. Bob says:

    Joseph,
    To claim “She is omnipotent, for the queen, according to all laws, enjoys the same privileges as the king; and since the son’s power also belongs to the mother, this Mother is made omnipotent by an omnipotent Son. ” is to put her on the same level as God. As a god she is to be worshiped.

    Here are some more quotes from the Glories of Mary:
    “She is the singular Refuge of the abandoned, the Hope of the miserable, and the Advocate of every sinner who turns to her. 43

    “Those who live in sin and never honor her with any particular devotion, never pray for help to break away from sin, are goats indeed, but not Mary’s. At the last judgment they will be driven to the left with the damned.”

    If anyone says that all grace or any grace comes through Mary then they are lying because Scripture never attributes such things to her.

    I have dialogued with Mormons, Muslims, JWs about their unbiblical faiths.

    What I hate is false doctrines being taught as true doctrines and deceiving people.

    • Joseph Wingate says:

      Well Bob, one day we will know for sure what respect and honor the blessed virgin Mary deserves. I know that she has made a difference in my life and I have never been taught that she is God nor does the RCC teach it. Mary points to her Son and her yes is good enough for me.

      I noticed that you attack the church about Mary and the papacy, seemingly lacking was any discussion about the Eucharist. Since every Church since the great schism has believed in the real presence what is your take on it? Not biblical?

      • Bob says:

        Joseph,
        The “metaphorical-symbolic” understanding makes the best sense of the texts on the last supper.

        • De Maria says:

          You embrace that belief because you don’t believe the word of Jesus Christ.

          Do you also believe it is a metaphor when Scripture says you will be judged by your works?

          2 Corinthians 5:10
          For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

          Do you also believe it is a metaphor when Scipture says you must obey the Church?
          Hebrews 13:17
          King James Version (KJV)
          17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

          Do you believe it is another metaphor when Scripture says you must attend the Assembly?

          Hebrews 10:25-31
          King James Version (KJV)
          25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

          26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

          27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

          28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

          29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

          30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

          31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

          Or what excuse do you make for setting these Teachings aside?

        • De Maria says:

          No Bob. You believe it is a metaphor because you refuse to believe the word of Jesus Christ. Just like these fellows:

          John 6:58-66
          King James Version (KJV)
          58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

          59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.

          60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

          61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

          62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

          63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

          64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

          65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

          66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

          Like those fellows, you have denied Christ.

          • De Maria says:

            Sorry about the double post. I thought I had lost one into oblivion and I couldn’t find it. By the time I posted the second, I forgot what I had said in the first. I only intended to respond to that message once. But now I’ve got three responses in a row. Sorry.

          • Bob says:

            If its to be understood literally then you must accept that its cannibalism. There is nothing in the texts on supper accounts that the disciples understood Jesus to be speaking literally. If they did they would have protested because the drinking of blood was forbidden.

            Hope this helps

            • Joseph Wingate says:

              Well Bob, all of the original churches disagree with you. Martin Luther and countless Saints disagree with you.

              Precisely why lots of disciples left Jesus at that moment because they did not understand. Peter did not understand, but said “to whom shall we go”?

  12. Bob says:

    De Maria,
    To say Mary “is omnipotent” is to say she is God since only God is omnipotent. This is a blasphemous to say.

    • De Maria says:

      He said much more than that Bob.

      “She is omnipotent, for the queen, according to all laws, enjoys the same privileges as the king; and since the son’s power also belongs to the mother, this Mother is made omnipotent by an omnipotent Son. ”

      Her omnipotence comes from God. Her omnipotence comes from Jesus Christ, her Son, the King of heaven.

      That is the definition of a Queen Mother. If she were not the mother of Jesus Christ, she would not be the mother of God. And if she were not the mother of God, you would be right. But Jesus Christ is her Son and He was born of her womb. That makes her the Mother of God and Queen of Heaven.

      This is why God Himself praised her through His Angel and through His Saint.

      • Bob says:

        You lack discernment.

        • De Maria says:

          No, Bob. It is you. That is why you follow the traditions of men.

          • Bob says:

            It is a blasphemous tradition of men to call Mary omnipotent.

            • De Maria says:

              Maybe if people like you say it. But St. Alphonsus Liguori is a Doctor of the Church and understands the spiritual Teachings of God perfectly.

              Since, then, the Mother must have the same power as the Son, Mary became omnipotent because Jesus is omnipotent. Of course, the Son is omnipotent by nature, where Mary is omnipotent only by grace. This is proved by the fact that the Son never refuses the Mother anything

              But you have no spiritual discernment. Something which Scripture tells you is vital to understanding the Word of God:

              1 Corinthians 2:14
              But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.